Germans wrestle with multicultural identity

[Gerald]

What does a true German look like? Or rather, what do Germans think a true German looks like? The question is at the core of a debate which simmers - and occasionally boils over - as Germany tries to define itself in an age of migration.Gunter Piening, for example, thinks his blond hair and blue eyes make him the picture of German-ness - but he doesn't like that perception.He is Berlin's Commissioner for Integration and Migration, and he told the BBC: "A lot of people think that 'German' is an ethnic category - that Germans are blond and blue eyed."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12090328


Note: 30 December 2010 Last updated at 05:56 GMT

[Feuer Frei!]

Angela Merkel's statement has no basis in reality, because the word “multiculturalism” means nothing more than the functioning coexistence of various cultures within a community, which means that multiculturalism is in fact a universal, timeless concept.
Merkel’s comment was mostly meant as a concession to the conservative grassroots of her own party.
Another factor that perhaps led to the German chancellor’s statement is that the economic crisis in Germany, as in Europe at large, has given rise to a spreading climate of uncertainty. In uncertain times, people get nervous – and nervous people tend to behave more aggressively.
The failure of German Turks to assimilate is a well-documented phenomenon. A 2009 study by the Berlin Institute for Population and Development found that even after 50 years and three generation in the country, Turks remained a people apart.
Religion would seem to be one of the underlying reasons for the Turks’ persistent outsider status. Turks make up the majority of Germany’s 4 million Muslim residents, and despite the secular reputation of 20th century Turkey, there is abundant evidence that their brand of Islam has been in tension with German culture and society.

Solution: Take the long, hard step of building a societal-wide consensus that acknowledges Islamic particularism…and its incompatibility with Western traditions.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Solution: Take the long, hard step of building a societal-wide consensus that acknowledges Islamic particularism…and its incompatibility with Western traditions.

That should be a solution...? What comes in the wake of this? German anthem sung in Turkish? German Turks voting in Turkey? Turkish autonomy zones in German cities?

The Islamic particularism - is nothing else but racism and supremacism, btw. . A Herrenkultur it claims to be, like regarding the Aryan cult in the Third Reich we talk of the Herrenrasse.

On the article, Merkel is the evidence that something like intellectual nihilism does exist. And her set of paroles and phrases is very limited - that'S why she is sounding so very repetitive. The word "alternativlos" I cannot hear anymore, sometimes I thought over this year that she uses this word more often than Yes and No together.

And to define German-ness by the looks of the blue-eyed blond Siegfried-kind of guy, does not make sense. The more to the East you move in Germany, the more you will see another visual model dominating, and I do not talk of Oriental imigrants, but the native people living in the region of the former Prussia, being influenced by the genetic heritage of the slavic people: in Berlin and surrounding regions for example you see dark-haired, dark-eyed males much more often than the blue-eyed, blond type, and more often than in the Western and Northern part of Germany.

What "German" means, touches upon things like historic identity, cultural background, value system, the basis one's philosophical thinking is founded upon, recognizing the influence of the Christian-Judaic tradition, an identity that preferes certain art styles over others. You cannot build a cluster of traditional Japanese wood-and-paper houses in Bavaria and then say that that would be "typical German".

Being German (or American or French or Australian) is more than exchnaging one ID card for another, and a stamp on a document means nothing, is just a formal bureaucratic thing.

And multiculturalism: regarding Islam, it failed miserably in Germany, and necessarily must do so - that'S why it is failing in all other European countries as well. Islam is not multicultural, but monocultural. The Quranic teaching explicitly rules out the tolerant acceptance of other cultures, but demands that there shall be only one culture: Islam. Coexistence never is based onm tolerance and respect, but is only meant to be temporary - lasting only as long as Islam is not strong enough to overcome the other culture. There will be no peace, says Islam, as long as there is still something left that is not Islam and by the fact of its existence poses a threat and challenges Islam's claim for undisputed reign. If you want peace, you thus must spread Islam. - That is no interpretation thing, but partially is said explicitly, partially is an implication of the revealed word of Allah himself. That is what the Quran is taken for: it is the word of Allah himself (its different with the Bible, and should not be compared). Us mortals have no right to want to change and interpret the word of God himself. Thinking that we may do that - is heresy. - The inten tional rejection to integrate, cannot be excused. But it can be explained. Regarding Turks, both Islam and their traditional cultural patriarchalic burden exlain why Turks so often refuse to integrate. There are those who do integrate, yes. But they are not exemplary, but the exception from the rule. They are the minority, and not even a big one. And typically they do not care for influencing their countrymen to integrate.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

Solution: its incompatibility with Western traditions.

I stress this, incompatibility.

Originally Posted by Skybird

That should be a solution...? What comes in the wake of this? German anthem sung in Turkish? German Turks voting in Turkey? Turkish autonomy zones in German cities?

Far from it, quiete the opposite actually

And to define German-ness by the looks of the blue-eyed blond Siegfried-kind of guy, does not make sense.

Of course it doesn't, just a stereotypical, narrow-minded viewpoint.

What "German" means, touches upon things like historic identity, cultural background, value system, the basis one's philosophical thinking is founded upon, recognizing the influence of the Christian-Judaic tradition, an identity that preferes certain art styles over others. You cannot build a cluster of traditional Japanese wood-and-paper houses in Bavaria and then say that that would be "typical German".

Agreed!

The country has little need of unskilled labor illiterate in German, although it is facing a labor shortage for highly qualified positions. The German economy is doing far better than the rest of Europe due to niches in machine tools, construction equipment, and other high-quality capital goods; every factory in China runs on German machine tools. Unlike the 1960s, unskilled immigrants are now more of a burden than a blessing to German industry.
The facts the global press failed to mention, however, include the fact that an important motivation for the Chancellor's remarks lies in Germany's profound disillusionment at the radical Islamist tendencies in Turkey's government, led by Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan, and Germany's alarm at Turkey's drift towards Islamism.

[DarkFish]

My solution?

Send them all back to Turkey or wherever they come from. If they don't want any part in German society, what are they doing there? They are coming to Germany, so they should behave as a German expects them to. That means obeying cultural rules and speaking the language. Don't want to do that? In that case you have no business there.

And yes, I think a true German looks like this blond-hair-blue-eyes ideal. Not necessarily blond hair or blue eyes, but most certainly Germanic facial characteristics.
Which by the way doesn't mean there is one kind of German. Germans from the south look different from their northern compatriots.

[the_tyrant]

If current trends continue, the turks can never take over Germany
Just think about it guys, most turks in Germany are illegal immigrants anyways.
The rest that are legal belong mostly in the uneducated lower class anyways

turks taking over Germany is just like Mexicans taking over the US
if current trends continue, it will never happen

[Skybird]

As Gunnar Heihnsohn has shown, and other statistics to which he refers also indicate, the deciding issue are birth rates. And Muslim migrants, social low class, uneducated, tend to have much hiugher birth rates than the native German academically educated upper class career woman. The numbers cannot be denied. To keep a population strength, women need to have 2.1 opr 2.3 babies. But the Muslim migration women statistically have a very much higher biorth rate, which means they do not maintain but increase their share in population, while the German native women andf the middle and upper class have significantly less than 2.1 babies, which means their share of the total population of the German state is decreasing.

It also means that the number of future social wellfare receivers is growing and the numbers of netto payers is declining.

Several Muslim politicians and clerics have explicitly described this as the way to continue where the military attempt to take over Europe has failed. Demographics now are the weapon to "outbreed" the Europeans, babies are the weapons in this kind of war. Societies of the West should be socially destabilised and made to collapse, the authority of the state erodes and weakens, and what remains is then easy prey for Islamic blackmailing and intimidation in order to have the West adopting it, else face open revolts and ungovernable cities. You can already see it in England, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, where police procedures, language and legislation get gagged to avoid anything that could upset the strong and already very loud Muslim parallel societies. Especially the English are no longer rulers in their own house. Same is true for several cities in other nations as well.

Ironically it often are those apostate Muslim that flee from Muslim regimes like Iran, that warn the loudest of these things - and then get the mandatory beating by the political correctness brigade and the - mainly left-leaning -intellectuals that claim to know Islam so much better than Islam knows itself.

And the Germanic look of Germans - the link between Germans and the old Germanic tribes, is mostly a myth. Like we also are made to believe that it were out forefathers that under good ol' Hermann defeated the roman legions in the battle of the Teutoburger forest. But ethnologists say that the truth is we Germans have little to do with the Geranic people of that time, and in fact genetically as well as by cultural influence share much, much more with the Romans, than with the Germanic tribes. That ancient histpory era is very widely misunderstood, and currently gets rewritten anyway. Recent archeologic findings seem to give evidence that after the defeat the romans did anything but staying away, but had several punishing war expeditions into the Germanic forest in the twoo hundred years to come, and they moved much more North than was previously thought. Ands I think that reaction is much more in line with what we are used to think about the Roman military empire. It does not fit that they just should have left the place because one battle was lost and the rites and habits of the Germanic people were scaring to them. That they punished them and piushed even stronger into the enemy's territory, which seems to be shown by recent archeologic findings, fits the image we have of Rome much better. - Germans tend to think of the Germanic leader being "one of theirs", we even have a very big monument of him at Detmold, 2km away from the place were I was born. But truth is we have little in common with him and his people, and we modern Germans are much stronger linked to the Romans. - We have just had a remembrance year, and there were several docus because of this on TV, about the battle at the Teutoburger forest. The history of the Roman-Germanic conflict must be rewritten. Rome was active in Germania muchg longer than was thought, and the defeat Varus suffered, was not the end of the Roman engagement. In fact, Rome moved further north after that than ever before.

[the_tyrant]

@Skybird
don't worry. Here in canada we have a large Muslim population too
The first generation immigrants are still obviously muslim
the second generation is "Black".
My muslim friends dress in the same clothes as us, listen to the same music as us, eat the same foods as us, watch the same tv as us. They are exactly like the rest of us.

the thing is, western (mainly american) culture is more "infectious" than Muslim culture. It is easier to adapt to western culture than it is to Muslim culture.

The hardliners try to preserve their culture, but i believe that its futile. In maybe 20 years, the young generation of turks in germany will be speaking german, eating german food, dressing in german fashions

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

although it is facing a labor shortage for highly qualified positions.

I always get a good laugh out of this. Do you know how many academics are unemployed? We don't have a shortage of good people. We have a shortage in companies training them!
You have no experience in your job? Sorry we can't take you.
You can't operate SAP? Sorry we can't take you?
If one puts the level of what a person is supposed to be qualified in to unreachable heights then one shouldn't complain that one doesn't get any "good" people. Today companies don't want to invest in their personnel any more. You are supposed to know everything the day you start. That's impossible of course but our glorious managers think it's good for the books and it's cheaper to whine and demand more people from India (who aren't better then we are, but they are at least cheaper).

The German economy is doing far better than the rest of Europe due to niches in machine tools, construction equipment, and other high-quality capital goods; every factory in China runs on German machine tools. Unlike the 1960s, unskilled immigrants are now more of a burden than a blessing to German industry.

Actually it's also because wages have dropped here dramatically.
If you sign a new employment contract then you will find really low wages there nowadays. You've got to be happy to get 30.000€ gross pay a year as an academic. I know some who get less. They got 20.400€ a year as academics! I did an intern ship 5 years ago with a company that operates buses and I talked to some of the drivers. The average public service bus driver earned more than that back then. Why did we actually study?

Rant over, now I feel better.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by tyrant

If current trends continue, the turks can never take over Germany
Just think about it guys, most turks in Germany are illegal immigrants anyways.
The rest that are legal belong mostly in the uneducated lower class anyways

turks taking over Germany is just like Mexicans taking over the US
if current trends continue, it will never happen

Is there a price for the dumbest post of the year? We have a winner!
Really, your parents should spank you and make you write 1000 times: "I will only write about that I know of". I really shouldn't read threadfs when I'm not logged in....
If all the chinese in Canada are this ignorent they should be deported.
Please do not come to Germany, my immigrant friends would not welcome you here.
hint: most turkish people in Germany are legal here - the problems are more complex than a small brain might be able to understand

Originally Posted by DarkFish

My solution?

Send them all back to Turkey or wherever they come from. If they don't want any part in German society, what are they doing there? They are coming to Germany, so they should behave as a German expects them to. That means obeying cultural rules and speaking the language. Don't want to do that? In that case you have no business there.

Cmon DF, I know you can do better, sending all Turks back is not possible - and a blank generalisation of a whole group.
I grew up in a poor part of town with a huge immigrant population, I know what I am talking about. However in the 80s, if you spoke ****ty german, you would be laughed at - today there is an alarming trend to talk like a bullet blew away half you brain - among most teenagers.
That being said, I don't like most Turks as well as I don't like most Germans also. I hate anybody who wants to take my freedom away.
The reason many people stay in this country where they despise it's laws and it's population is easy to determine: It's all about the money. They stay here for job opportunities/welfare. However: if someone is into sharia, there are plenty of countries who offer this opportunity...

Originally Posted by DarkFish

And yes, I think a true German looks like this blond-hair-blue-eyes ideal. Not necessarily blond hair or blue eyes, but most certainly Germanic facial characteristics.
Which by the way doesn't mean there is one kind of German. Germans from the south look different from their northern compatriots.

Well, one of my granddads had an "arian certification" (Ariernachweis) till 1750, but we are are weird mutt mix, originally from SE Europe several 100 years ago. My other side are mostly of eastern european descent. Throw in East-Prussian, Polish, maybe some jewish heritage too. German since many generations. Many people think I look polish - whatever poles look like.
The Germans were always a mix of several different tribes. Just take a look at the names for Germans in several languages. Deutsche, Duitse, aleman, allemandes, tyska, saksan, tedeschi, niemcy....

Originally Posted by Skybird

As Gunnar Heihnsohn has shown, and other statistics to which he refers also indicate, the deciding issue are birth rates. And Muslim migrants, social low class, uneducated, tend to have much hiugher birth rates than the native German academically educated upper class career woman. The numbers cannot be denied. To keep a population strength, women need to have 2.1 opr 2.3 babies. But the Muslim migration women statistically have a very much higher biorth rate, which means they do not maintain but increase their share in population, while the German native women andf the middle and upper class have significantly less than 2.1 babies, which means their share of the total population of the German state is decreasing.

Ignorant people shouldn't breed -it's simple as this.

[the_tyrant]

@penguin

my statement was an estimate, but i think its partially correct

In 2003, the number of legally resident foreigners in Germany was 7.3 million, which comprised 8.9 percent of the total population. Citizens of the former guest worker countries continue to make up the largest share of this number, which notably included 1.9 million Turkish citizens, of whom 654,000 were born in Germany. Another 575,000 Turks have been naturalized since 1972 and do not show up in statistics of the foreign population.

]

from http://www.migrationinformation.org/...lay.cfm?ID=235

There are approximately 1.000.000 illegal immigrants in Germany, 250.000 alone in the capital Berlin. These people live without any papers and without an insurance card that allows them access to the German health system. The state of Berlin considers now to issue these illegal immigrants living in Berlin an “anonymous insurance certificate” that allows them to seek medical help without fearing repercussions after revealing their identity and illegal immigration status.

http://www.erblawg.com/illegal-immig...in-the-future/

1.9 million(turks)-654,000(born in germany)-575,000(obtained german citizenship)= 671000 (turks in germany without german citizenship)

majority>50%, therefore, if the amount of illegal turks exceed 335500, the majority is illegal.

therefore, if the percentage of illegal immigrants that are Turkish exceed 33.55%, a majority of turkish people in germany is illegal(i can't find statistics on the origin of illegal immigrants)





but still, my mistake. I was stupid to make assumptions that i have no data to back

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

@Skybird
don't worry. Here in canada we have a large Muslim population too
The first generation immigrants are still obviously muslim
the second generation is "Black".
My muslim friends dress in the same clothes as us, listen to the same music as us, eat the same foods as us, watch the same tv as us. They are exactly like the rest of us.

the thing is, western (mainly american) culture is more "infectious" than Muslim culture. It is easier to adapt to western culture than it is to Muslim culture.

Strange, in England and Germany it is exactly the other way around - if you were right about Canada. The second generation German-Turks were more conservative than their parents, and now the third generation is more orthodox, not tzo saY: radical than the first and second generation. Their rejecion of Western values is more complete, their Turkish nationalism is more radical, their pro-Islamic demands are more total, and their readiness to accept/tolerate even violence to enforce Islamic rule is more widespread than ever before.

I have repeatedly hinted at statistic findings from Germany and England over the past couple of years illustrating this.

There is a reason for the appearance of Islam being better integrated in North America. Islam spreas and anchors in Canda and the US because both societies - being traditional immigration countries from their founding days on - are more uncritical and naive both regarding foreign immigrants, and the term "religion". I mean even scientoilogy gets accepted to be a "religion" instead of a criminal corporation in the US! Islam does not need to become loud in the US to grow and spread, it does so anyway, by much less spectacular ways, because it meets lesser opposition by the non-Muslim population than in Europe. Also, in europe, due to the chriuch tyranny and later the facist Nazio terror, the understanding and awareness of the danger of totalitarian dogmas and supremacist ideologies seem to be clearer and stronger, than in North America. And finally, North America and especially the US is more orthodox and sectarian in its christian self-conception, than in European countries, were almost everywhere the once existing dominance of the Christian churches are more and more put into question, and the American diversity of sects present in the public space does not exist over here, too. The fundamentalist or sectarian of the one religion may have more sympathy for the sectarian/fundamentalist person of another religion - birds of same feather flock together. And Islam does not know fundamentalism in just some of its schools or sects, but is fundamentalist in its very basic essence and teaching. - In Europe, the churches seem to hope they could benefit from helping Islam getting established over here - by that they seem to hope to re-establish a stronger obedience to religious dogmatism and authority claims of religious organisations in general (Islam AND the churches), so that they will regain some of their former political power and influence.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by the_tyrant

@penguin

my statement was an estimate, but i think its partially correct

from http://www.migrationinformation.org/...lay.cfm?ID=235



http://www.erblawg.com/illegal-immig...in-the-future/

1.9 million(turks)-654,000(born in germany)-575,000(obtained german citizenship)= 671000 (turks in germany without german citizenship)

majority>50%, therefore, if the amount of illegal turks exceed 335500, the majority is illegal.

therefore, if the percentage of illegal immigrants that are Turkish exceed 33.55%, a majority of turkish people in germany is illegal(i can't find statistics on the origin of illegal immigrants)

since you have backed you claims with sources, I will reply:

The numbers you mentioned are about corrrect, your conclusions are not.

First: if you're born here, you don't automatically obtain german citizenship, we have jus sanguinus here, vs. jus soli like in North America. So the number of Turks with a turkish passport are ~ 1.3 mil
Second: There are many ways to live legalyl here if you are not a citizen: Do the words visa or work permit ring a bell? So assuming anyone who doesn't have german citizenship is illegal here is complete bs.

Due to its nature, the composition of the illegal immigrant population is not undermined by hard facts. Just assuming that the biggest part of the illegals would be Turks because they make the biggest percentage of the legal foreigners is wrong. Because of the fact that it is comparatively easy for them to live here legally, the percentage is significant lower. If you would know the german reality, you would see that there are many other foreign nationals who make up the illegal population. The number of illegals differ between 1-2 million btw.

Hey, I even knew an illegal Mexican here, quite unique here in Germany! He was a great guy, I would gladly have traded some legal islamistic immigrants or moronic Germans for him...

[the_tyrant]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Strange, in England and Germany it is exactly the other way around - if you were right about Canada. The second generation German-Turks were more conservative than their parents, and now the third generation is more orthodox, not tzo saY: radical than the first and second generation. Their rejecion of Western values is more complete, their Turkish nationalism is more radical, their pro-Islamic demands are more total, and their readiness to accept/tolerate even violence to enforce Islamic rule is more widespread than ever before.

I have repeatedly hinted at statistic findings from Germany and England over the past couple of years illustrating this.

There is a reason for the appearance of Islam being better integrated in North America. Islam spreas and anchors in Canda and the US because both societies - being traditional immigration countries from their founding days on - are more uncritical and naive both regarding foreign immigrants, and the term "religion". I mean even scientoilogy gets accepted to be a "religion" instead of a criminal corporation in the US! Islam does not need to become loud in the US to grow and spread, it does so anyway, by much less spectacular ways, because it meets lesser opposition by the non-Muslim population than in Europe. Also, in europe, due to the chriuch tyranny and later the facist Nazio terror, the understanding and awareness of the danger of totalitarian dogmas and supremacist ideologies seem to be clearer and stronger, than in North America. And finally, North America and especially the US is more orthodox and sectarian in its christian self-conception, than in European countries, were almost everywhere the once existing dominance of the Christian churches are more and more put into question, and the American diversity of sects present in the public space does not exist over here, too. The fundamentalist or sectarian of the one religion may have more sympathy for the sectarian/fundamentalist person of another religion - birds of same feather flock together. And Islam does not know fundamentalism in just some of its schools or sects, but is fundamentalist in its very basic essence and teaching. - In Europe, the churches seem to hope they could benefit from helping Islam getting established over here - by that they seem to hope to re-establish a stronger obedience to religious dogmatism and authority claims of religious organisations in general (Islam AND the churches), so that they will regain some of their former political power and influence.

Wow, thats surprising
if we look at some recent pictures from iran:
http://tieba.baidu.com/f?kz=789345885 (i hope the link works)

it actually seems like western culture is taking ground over there

[Gerald]

Sorry I can not fluent chinesiska , at the link