Capital ships in convoys???

K-61 · 08-10-10, 05:02 PM

I bagged HMS Rodney from a convoy in my previous GWX Gold patrol. She was travelling in the middle of the convoy, doing six knots. In real life, this would be suicide. Most warships, especially large ships like cruisers, battleships and carriers could do well above a U-boat's top speed surfaced. To place them within the convoy perimeter would force them to travel well below a safe speed.

I know it was a practice to occasionally sail major warships with a convoy to guard it against the predations of surface raiders like Graf Spee or Bismarck. I just don't think the Admiralty would tell them to sail within the convoy's perimeter. An escort could as easily protect the convoy by sailing outside the convoy, but still maintain a higher speed and zigzag to avoid torpedo attack.

What do you folks say on the subject? Do you think the SH3 way of simulating warship escort is realistic? I intend to "ignore" further occurences of this type, as a concession to what I feel is unrealistic. I'd appreciate any definitive references on the subject. I've read of accounts where convoys had major warship escort, but nothing specific as to how the convoy was escorted. I think the Admiralty would keelhaul a battleship commander who lost his ship when he was sailing inside a convoy rather than making speed outside the convoy.

timmy41 · 08-10-10, 05:17 PM

they did that in real life
the convoys were threatened by raiders and warships
they didnt have enough escorts to go around and had to resort to battlecruisers and battleships

are we sure that they have the range to go at max speed zigzagging the whole way across the atlantic?

K-61 · 08-10-10, 07:40 PM

I know that they were in the area of threatened convoys. I just haven't seen anything definitive about them being inside the convoy itself. Major warships had their own ASW screen with them at all times, as far as I know. In fact, the dedicated ASW escorts for major warships was one reason why convoy escorts were in short supply for the first couple of years of the war.

Alpha Von Burg · 08-10-10, 11:39 PM

I was using the warship mod (WSM 3.0) when I engaged the convoy with Rodney in it. Rodney was at 6 knots and as I closed in with my battleship, the escorts, excluding Rodney turned to engage me. After destroying all it's escorts I went for the rest of the convoy leaving Rodney. After sinking every in the convoy I engaged Rodney, and for some reason Rodney didn't enter any manner of alert, it was still going at 6 knots, I was literally circling it.

I engaged it for nearly 3 hours, in the end I had to pull out due to low ammunition and damage.

papa_smurf · 08-11-10, 05:29 AM

I nearly bagged HMS Renown last night, but was chased off

HW3 · 08-11-10, 07:13 AM

Go here and listen to Jurgen Oesten discribe his encounter with a convoy from Freetown with HMS Malaya guarding it.
http://silenthunteriii.com/uk/videos.php

K-61 · 08-11-10, 07:17 AM

Thanks, HW3!

Alpha Von Burg · 08-11-10, 07:21 AM

I found a Revenge class battleship in the middle of a convoy just south of Folkestone and I think west of Boulogne, October -- 1939, heading south-west, going along the Channel. I have 2 fore torps, no fore reserves, 1 str torp and 1 str reserve.

I fire all my fore torps, 1 hit and the other disappeared. I fire my str torp, it too disappeares. I had to bug out.

The only thing I succeded was in damaging the battleship.

Now, I'm left with 1 str torpedo, 1 external str torpedo, 1 external fore torpedo and a bunch of fuel.

so close

K-61 · 08-11-10, 07:23 AM

Just now finished watching the video. Osten does not definitively state that Malaya was inside the convoy, but he did state that she was "with the convoy." That sounds pretty much like she was inside the convoy, but left it at night. Hmmm. I'll have to reconsider my opinion.

K-61 · 08-11-10, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alpha Von Burg

I found a Revenge class battleship in the middle of a convoy just south of Folkestone and I think west of Boulogne, October -- 1939, heading south-west, going along the Channel. I have 2 fore torps, no fore reserves, 1 str torp and 1 str reserve.

I fire all my fore torps, 1 hit and the other disappeared. I fire my str torp, it too disappeares. I had to bug out.

The only thing I succeded was in damaging the battleship.

Now, I'm left with 1 str torpedo, 1 external str torpedo, 1 external fore torpedo and a bunch of fuel.

so close

Tough luck. It did happen. Although in the game you do not get renown for damaging ships, in real life such an attack did have consequences of value to the war effort. Listening to Osten's account, above, Malaya was sent to New York for 3/4 of a year. That's nine months she was not available for missions and tying up precious dockyard space and shipyard workers who could otherwise be employed. Surely that is still a valuable result, but not as satisfactory as a sinking?

What happened to your target? Did it reduce speed? I've found in my gaming that I don't always get a sinking with the first attack, but enough damage is inflicted to force the ship to reduce speed and fall behind the convoy. Even better, she loses all steam and sits there like a sleeping duck, making for an easy kill shot once you survive the counterattack of the angry escorts.

Alpha Von Burg · 08-11-10, 07:33 AM

Quote:

...Although in the game you do not get renown for damaging ships...

I know...
not getting the renown was not the frustrating part, it was the fact that I didn't sink it.

Herr-Berbunch · 08-11-10, 07:34 AM

I've yet to come across any capital ships or carriers, am I looking in the right place, the big wet area in the middle?

That said, I do tend to avoid the things that fight back, but if I ever do get the opportunity I will..

frau kaleun · 08-11-10, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Herr-Berbunch

I've yet to come across any capital ships or carriers, am I looking in the right place, the big wet area in the middle?

That said, I do tend to avoid the things that fight back, but if I ever do get the opportunity I will..

Don't know what date you're playing at, but if you hang about in or around the fjord that forms the approach to Narvik during the Battle of Norway, it's a good bet you'll encounter something interesting.

My only capital ship so far was the Warspite and I got her there.

Funny thing was, I think she's the only capital ship I've spotted this career. Intercepted a task force she was in, west of Scotland, a couple of months into the war and even got a shot at her but everything missed.

She also turned up in the middle of a northern bound convoy coming out of Freetown, about two months after I sank her in the Vestfjord. I left her alone that time, I ain't messin' with no ghost ship.

Herr-Berbunch · 08-11-10, 10:48 AM

OK, next time I restart a career I'll make sure to head up to Norway early '40. I usually avoid that way on, maybe that's why I never meet them?

frau kaleun · 08-11-10, 11:21 AM

At some point in late March or early April, IIRC, there's radio message about British task forces leaving Britain and believed to be heading east to prepare for invasion/defense of Norway. That's the first indication I remember that things up there are about to get interesting.

Once German operations in Norway are underway (or close to it), you start getting messages about proceeding to defend Narvik or Trondheim or whatever. You can consider them merely "immersive" or obey the "orders" and put yourself into the middle of things.

I think at some point there's another message that releases u-boats back to their previously assigned patrols.

08-10-10, 05:02 PM	#1
K-61 Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 795 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Capital ships in convoys??? I bagged HMS Rodney from a convoy in my previous GWX Gold patrol. She was travelling in the middle of the convoy, doing six knots. In real life, this would be suicide. Most warships, especially large ships like cruisers, battleships and carriers could do well above a U-boat's top speed surfaced. To place them within the convoy perimeter would force them to travel well below a safe speed. I know it was a practice to occasionally sail major warships with a convoy to guard it against the predations of surface raiders like Graf Spee or Bismarck. I just don't think the Admiralty would tell them to sail within the convoy's perimeter. An escort could as easily protect the convoy by sailing outside the convoy, but still maintain a higher speed and zigzag to avoid torpedo attack. What do you folks say on the subject? Do you think the SH3 way of simulating warship escort is realistic? I intend to "ignore" further occurences of this type, as a concession to what I feel is unrealistic. I'd appreciate any definitive references on the subject. I've read of accounts where convoys had major warship escort, but nothing specific as to how the convoy was escorted. I think the Admiralty would keelhaul a battleship commander who lost his ship when he was sailing inside a convoy rather than making speed outside the convoy. __________________

08-10-10, 07:40 PM	#3
K-61 Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 795 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	I know that they were in the area of threatened convoys. I just haven't seen anything definitive about them being inside the convoy itself. Major warships had their own ASW screen with them at all times, as far as I know. In fact, the dedicated ASW escorts for major warships was one reason why convoy escorts were in short supply for the first couple of years of the war. __________________

08-10-10, 11:39 PM	#4
Alpha Von Burg Engineer Join Date: May 2010 Location: Unknown Posts: 202 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	I was using the warship mod (WSM 3.0) when I engaged the convoy with Rodney in it. Rodney was at 6 knots and as I closed in with my battleship, the escorts, excluding Rodney turned to engage me. After destroying all it's escorts I went for the rest of the convoy leaving Rodney. After sinking every in the convoy I engaged Rodney, and for some reason Rodney didn't enter any manner of alert, it was still going at 6 knots, I was literally circling it. I engaged it for nearly 3 hours, in the end I had to pull out due to low ammunition and damage. __________________ -Kapitänleutnant Richard L. Römer

08-11-10, 05:29 AM	#5
papa_smurf Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: High Peak, Derbyshire Posts: 2,851 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	I nearly bagged HMS Renown last night, but was chased off __________________

08-11-10, 07:13 AM	#6
HW3 Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Gresham Oregon Posts: 6,574 Downloads: 458 Uploads: 0	Go here and listen to Jurgen Oesten discribe his encounter with a convoy from Freetown with HMS Malaya guarding it. http://silenthunteriii.com/uk/videos.php __________________ "Some ships are designed to sink...others require our assistance." Nathan Zelk

08-10-10, 05:17 PM	#2
timmy41 Weps Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 367 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	they did that in real life the convoys were threatened by raiders and warships they didnt have enough escorts to go around and had to resort to battlecruisers and battleships are we sure that they have the range to go at max speed zigzagging the whole way across the atlantic?

08-11-10, 07:17 AM	#7
K-61 Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 795 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Thanks, HW3! __________________

08-11-10, 07:21 AM	#8
Alpha Von Burg Engineer Join Date: May 2010 Location: Unknown Posts: 202 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	I found a Revenge class battleship in the middle of a convoy just south of Folkestone and I think west of Boulogne, October -- 1939, heading south-west, going along the Channel. I have 2 fore torps, no fore reserves, 1 str torp and 1 str reserve. I fire all my fore torps, 1 hit and the other disappeared. I fire my str torp, it too disappeares. I had to bug out. The only thing I succeded was in damaging the battleship. Now, I'm left with 1 str torpedo, 1 external str torpedo, 1 external fore torpedo and a bunch of fuel. so close __________________ -Kapitänleutnant Richard L. Römer

08-11-10, 07:23 AM	#9
K-61 Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Ontario Posts: 795 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Just now finished watching the video. Osten does not definitively state that Malaya was inside the convoy, but he did state that she was "with the convoy." That sounds pretty much like she was inside the convoy, but left it at night. Hmmm. I'll have to reconsider my opinion. __________________

08-11-10, 07:34 AM	#12
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	I've yet to come across any capital ships or carriers, am I looking in the right place, the big wet area in the middle? That said, I do tend to avoid the things that fight back, but if I ever do get the opportunity I will.. __________________

08-11-10, 10:48 AM	#14
Herr-Berbunch Kaiser Bill's batman Join Date: May 2010 Location: AN72 Posts: 13,203 Downloads: 76 Uploads: 0	OK, next time I restart a career I'll make sure to head up to Norway early '40. I usually avoid that way on, maybe that's why I never meet them? __________________

08-11-10, 11:21 AM	#15
frau kaleun Rear Admiral Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Skyri--oh who are we kidding, I'm probably at Lowe's. Again. Posts: 12,706 Downloads: 168 Uploads: 0	At some point in late March or early April, IIRC, there's radio message about British task forces leaving Britain and believed to be heading east to prepare for invasion/defense of Norway. That's the first indication I remember that things up there are about to get interesting. Once German operations in Norway are underway (or close to it), you start getting messages about proceeding to defend Narvik or Trondheim or whatever. You can consider them merely "immersive" or obey the "orders" and put yourself into the middle of things. I think at some point there's another message that releases u-boats back to their previously assigned patrols.