a story of patriotism...

[DarkFish]

...or rather quite the opposite

yesterday my dad, 64 and heart patient, was brutally arrested and, with only few clothes on him, literally thrown into an ice-cold cell. This all because of one terrible crime...
...he raised the Dutch flag while on the visitors bench in a city council's meeting.

The city counsil was discussing a plan for placing a giant mosque in our neighbourhood. To be the biggest mosque in all the province. Room for 500 mosque-goers, from all over the country, and that while there's already much too less room to park all residents cars, let alone a few hundred more. Not to mention the minarettes and the loud calling for prayers.
Needless to say pretty much all the neighbourhood was against those plans, and a large number of us went to the city council's meeting to protest, and at least see what the outcome would be.
There, my dad put the Dutch flag on his walking stick, and raised it. He was immediately summoned to lower our national flag, which he refused. Within a matter of minutes EIGHT police officers (bit overdone, 8 VS one 64 year old man with bad health) stormed the buiding and dragged my dad straight out, under loud protest of all present.
Luckily eventually the counsil decided against the mosque after all.

Now compare this with the US, rarely do I see any pic without the US flag showing up someplace.

What in the devils name will become of this country if we can't even raise our national flag anymore?!

(PS sorry for this rant but I just want to remind you that how overexaggerated it might look at times, you US citizens should be lucky to still be allowed a little patriotism)

[Schroeder]

Boy and I thought only us Germans have a problem with that.

[Platapus]

I am not familiar with the laws there. If what he did was against the law, he should not have done it. Breaking the law, regardless of good intentions, can not be allowed.

Did your father know that what he was intending on doing was illegal?

If so it is sad that your father choose to break the law (if it was, in fact illegal). Especially since he broke the law for no effect (the council voted against the motion anyway). Perhaps he should have waited until the council voted before choosing to break the law?

I hope your father is OK, but if he did in fact break the law, I don't have a lot of sympathy. People can't break the law and expect to escape responsibility due to their age or their good intentions.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I am not familiar with the laws there. If what he did was against the law, he should not have done it. Breaking the law, regardless of good intentions, can not be allowed.

In that case, the police were only doing their jobs, but I find your blind respect for the law un-nerving. Will you have said the same thing if those cops shot the father?

Law is supposed to be a formalized generalization of ethics rather than arbitrary, and this here looks to me like a victimless crime (crime as defined legally only). If there is indeed a law of this sort, it is the law that is at fault.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Platapus

If so it is sad that your father choose to break the law (if it was, in fact illegal). Especially since he broke the law for no effect (the council voted against the motion anyway). Perhaps he should have waited until the council voted before choosing to break the law?

well that's the problem, it isn't illegal.
Point is, you can raise the Turkish, Maroccan or Southeast-Blablawaysian flag and nobody cares. But once you raise the Dutch flag all officials jump up and accuse you of racism, disturbing the peace and all that's bad

(BTW disturbing the peace is what my dad is charged with)

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

If there is indeed a law of this sort, it is the law that is at fault.

luckily there isn't there's only our government and police overreacting against racism where there isn't any

[Jimbuna]

Sounds to me like excessive force

Originally Posted by jimbuna

Sounds to me like excessive force

Boneheads (read: Neonazis) are pretty strong in numbers even in the Netherlands, let alone places further east. Would have looked pretty strange if only one cop had tried to do it and then gotten surrounded by several neonazis from the crowd.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

well that's the problem, it isn't illegal.
...

(BTW disturbing the peace is what my dad is charged with)

Well that is a different story. In your original post, you gave me the impression your father was arrested simply for raising the flag. Now it appears that your father was arrested for disturbing the peace, which I assume is more than just waiving a piece of cloth.

Did your father resist the officers, or did he make a disturbance other than raising the flag?

I have a feeling there is more to this story than you originally posted.

It will be interesting to see what the judge has to say about this case.

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by Kazuaki Shimazaki II

I find your blind respect for the law un-nerving.

By my nature I am a law-follower. If something is against the law, I generally don't do it. When I drive, The Frau hates this attitude when it comes to speed limits.

On those rare occasions where I choose to break the law, I am fully prepared to accept the consequences. That is really my gripe -- people choosing to break the law and then complaining when consequences are levied against them. That is hypocrisy.

I am for the right for people to engage in "civil disobedience" if they feel the issue calls for it (I never do however), but when they are caught, I don't have a lot of sympathy.

I believe there is a song about doing crimes and doing times.

Consider the state of society if everyone thought they could break laws and not be held responsible simply because they felt it was socially justified? The term anarchy comes to mind.

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Well that is a different story. In your original post, you gave me the impression your father was arrested simply for raising the flag. Now it appears that your father was arrested for disturbing the peace, which I assume is more than just waiving a piece of cloth.

Did your father resist the officers, or did he make a disturbance other than raising the flag?

nope, all he did was raising our flag and refusing to lower it when asked. It isn't illegal to raise the Dutch flag ANYWHERE so they shouldn't even have asked him.
He did resist the officers, but only after he was arrested and cuffed. Most of the 'disturbance' was done by the other people protesting against him being arrested.
I don't know about the US, but here, disturbing the peace is a generic reason the police uses to arrest anyone the government doesn't like (=any patriotism, because of the Dutch racismophobia)

Originally Posted by Platapus

By my nature I am a law-follower. If something is against the law, I generally don't do it. When I drive, The Frau hates this attitude when it comes to speed limits.

Hah you don't know my dad
My dad is of the kind that, if he saw you speeding, would jump in front of you car, stop you and give you a lengthy preach about how you shouldn't break the law.
(in fact, he's done such things on occasion. Foolish as that might be, it shows how he respects the law)

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by DarkFish

nope, all he did was raising our flag and refusing to lower it when asked. It isn't illegal to raise the Dutch flag ANYWHERE so they shouldn't even have asked him.
He did resist the officers, but only after he was arrested and cuffed. Most of the 'disturbance' was done by the other people protesting against him being arrested.

Not a good idea to resist officers of the law. That is too bad. The raising of the flag would probably be thrown out of court (since you are saying it is not illegal). But the resisting of the officers, might not.

The time to resist a law officer is in court and you don't do it physically.

I have been arrested twice in my life. Both times I was "Mr. Cooperative" Both times the charges were dropped (I did not do anything illegal) and both times the officers thanked me for not making a fuss.

Anyway, I hope your father will be OK. Perhaps the resisting/disturbing charges will be dropped. Let's hope your father learned his lesson.

[CaptainHaplo]

First of all - I salute your father.

He stood up for something he believed in - though I do have to say his CHOICE in HOW he did it did push some boundaries, freedom has never been cheap.

Political correctness will kill us if we allow it. At least some are still willing to say enough is enough!

[DarkFish]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Anyway, I hope your father will be OK.

thanks

Perhaps the resisting/disturbing charges will be dropped. Let's hope your father learned his lesson.

that's another difference between the US and here, in the Netherlands resisting officers of law is seen as much less severe as in the US. That's why he isn't charged with that.
Anyway, he's free again, if they haven't got a good reason to hold you they must release you after 20 hours, which is exactly what happened.
That is why I think the charges will be dropped eventually, if they had any good reason to hold him they would have done so.
It's not that I'm afraid he'll be prosecuted - instead I'm rather outraged you can get arrested for something simple like waving a flag in a civilized country like the Netherlands.

I don't think he learned his lesson however. I know him too well for that

[Shearwater]

I don't see why a Dutch flag is supposed to be a sign of protest against building a mosque.

Hope your father's alright.

[Highbury]

I respect your father for standing up for what he believes in.

That said, I think it is naive and overdramatic to say he was arrested for "showing a little patriotism". He was obviously arrested for participating in disorderly conduct in a town meeting. Whether he was waving a flag or a soiled pair of boxers the result would have been the same, the flag is irrelevant.