Looking for Danger in the Pacific...

[Keelbuster]

Hey guys,

I'm on patrol 9 right now, TMO + RSRD - August '43. I'm really in need of a good depth charging. Out of 9 patrols, I've encountered escorts (either for a TF or in a small convoy) maybe 3 or 4 times max. Every other sinking I've made has been a lone merchant. It feels too easy and safe. I get a radar contact, loudly approach, get perfect TDC data, kill the poor sap, and then sail off happily on the surface. Every plane that shows up I pick up on SD radar with plenty of time to dive, so there's absolutely no danger from air attack. Occasionally I get a convoy report over FLASH, but it's usually too far away. Once I intercepted on convoy and found it had two escorts, both minesweepers. I sunk one with a cutie and the other one lost me when I dove to 400 ft. All in all it was a pretty safe situation for me.

I'm used to the Atlantic theatre where almost every kill comes at a price - usually an hour of nailbiting and tooth rattling depth charges. Does IJN use the convoy system? Is there any chance of me getting a good depth-charging this career? Does it get more dangerous later in the war?

[BillBam]

This is the way it was in the early war, as time progresses the Japs formed more convoys with escorts. Don't forget that in the Atlantic they were fighting U-Boats for years and learned how to protect their ships.

I assume that early in the war the Japs assumed their freighters were safe near home waters, this definitely was not the case in the long Atlantic voyage of Allied convoys.

Also the Allied detection equipment was much more advanced than the Japs, especially early on.

[Steiger]

Not that I can tell. I've been on 11 patrols and have yet to be honestly challenged by any escorts. I've taken more damage from running gun battles with armed merchants than I have from depth charges. Japanese destroyers simply don't have the hardware to dish out any serious damage. I once attacked a task force escorted by 4 destroyers, and was able to shake them after just 2 attack runs. I hear that you can attack Bungo Pete in the Bungo Straights and that he kills people pretty consistently.

[Ducimus]

Try starting in 1943, with just TMO and see if that makes any difference. I think you may run into more convoys. They'll range anywhere between 3 and 12 or 15 ships, with escorts ranging as few as two, to as many as 5, most of them set at veteran skill level. The convoys will be zig zagging at regular intervals, so you may find yourself tracking them a bit longer.

edit:
I have to admit, this post, coming from you keelbuster, kinda hurts, because making the game more challenging has been one of my goals in TMO. Your one of those fellows' whose been around awhile, we used to kid around with each other during our SH3 days, so your opinion has some weight with me. So i'm sitting here wondering if i have failed, or perhaps, like me you've been playing these games for so long, and know the quirks of the AI so well, that you can tap dance your way into in most situations regardless of theater or conditions.

In any event try TMO just by itself and see if that makes any difference for you. As an aside, i don't know if you adjusted the hydrophone settings like i posted to in the TMO thread, but in working on version 2.0, ive come up with a completely different set of hydrophone settings. The one i posted earlier will make escorts absolutely deaf.

[Immacolata]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

edit:
I have to admit, this post, coming from you keelbuster, kinda hurts, because making the game more challenging has been one of my goals in TMO. Your one of those fellows' whose been around awhile, we used to kid around with each other during our SH3 days, so your opinion has some weight with me. So i'm sitting here wondering if i have failed, or perhaps, like me you've been playing these games for so long, and know the quirks of the AI so well, that you can tap dance your way into in most situations regardless of theater or conditions.

Hm, I don't think my opinion carries much weight compared to Keelbusters, but I just went off RSDC and went plain TMO 1.9 - and I am having more fun with it and will stay pure TMO 1.9. That coun'ts for some too I hope

[Ducimus]

Sure it does.

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Try starting in 1943, with just TMO and see if that makes any difference. I think you may run into more convoys. They'll range anywhere between 3 and 12 or 15 ships, with escorts ranging as few as two, to as many as 5, most of them set at veteran skill level. The convoys will be zig zagging at regular intervals, so you may find yourself tracking them a bit longer.

edit:
I have to admit, this post, coming from you keelbuster, kinda hurts, because making the game more challenging has been one of my goals in TMO. Your one of those fellows' whose been around awhile, we used to kid around with each other during our SH3 days, so your opinion has some weight with me. So i'm sitting here wondering if i have failed, or perhaps, like me you've been playing these games for so long, and know the quirks of the AI so well, that you can tap dance your way into in most situations regardless of theater or conditions.

In any event try TMO just by itself and see if that makes any difference for you. As an aside, i don't know if you adjusted the hydrophone settings like i posted to in the TMO thread, but in working on version 2.0, ive come up with a completely different set of hydrophone settings. The one i posted earlier will make escorts absolutely deaf.

Ducimus, let's not have any talk about failure here. I'm gettin' all teary-eyed. First off, I'm _loving_ this game. I played it immediately when it came out - stock - on my old box, and the twisted interface, the bugs, etc, and my crappy hardware made it a loser for me. Now that I have the hardware, I'm amazed at what a clean, functional game that you and the other modders have produced. You guys saved the day, and in particular, TMO has saved my day. As a game, this feels a ton better than SH3. I'm really appreciating the graphics, I love the new area of operations with all the shallow water etc, and the whole thing feels polished. I have no illusions about the massive commitment that you and the other modders have made to this game, and I can really feel as I play. I really didn't mean to sound like I was criticizing your work, TMO, etc. I felt bad right after I posted this message because I remember a post i put up a couple weeks ago on the TMO mod thread in the workshop forum saying the escorts were too sensitive. Here I am two weeks later singing a slightly different tune

What I might be reacting to, or becoming acclimated to, is the new style of boats. It might come down to differences in the challenges (historically) of being a US submariner vs. a Kriegsmariner. I'm amazed at what a different vibe it is being in a fleet boat. They're huge, powerful, heavily armed, basically loud (transmitting radar constantly), and they go in shooting. The fleet boat TDC seems to be set up for single merchant attacks - with the position keeper etc; it seems hard to orchestrate a multiple ship attack quickly. In contrast, the german boats were smaller, had a smaller armament, made less noise, could dive deeper, etc., and they're TDC was beautifully set up for multiple target attacks with the peri locked to the TDC, adjusting AoB etc. They also had the pattern running torps allowing for extreme range attacks.

So, I think it might be a question of vibe, style, attitude. I just kinda miss the sinister factor of lurking into a convoy and making massive kills on T3s etc, then slinking away for hours, cursing and sweating. Being the underdog - the bad guy. I like feeling like I did the big dirty and now I've gotta pay.

As for the japanese ASW, back when i was in my Porpoise class with the terribly shallow test depth, I had trouble getting under the japanese sonar, and had to do the old fashion SH3 hydrophone - wait till they're charging and then do a turn and bolt, go silent, etc. Eventually I was able to strip them off me. That reminded me of the old days; god they were hell. Now that I have a Balao, it seems that I can easily get under they're sonar cone, and weirdly I kinda miss the hell. I have yet to be afraid in SH4.

As for the detection radius thing I was complaining about earlier, I think the issue I had is that the escorts became 'tipped off' to soon. I grant that once an escort is suspicious, you've basically blown it and he should be a pain to get rid of. But if all's quiet and they're sailing nicely along, and I'm not doing much, giving them lots of space, and being sneaky, they should be surprised when they see steam bubbles. I'm interested to see how TMO 2.0 runs in that respect.

But that's all neither here nor there if all I'm encountering are single un-escorted merchants. I need to find the convoys. I'll take your advice and try TMO clean after this career is done. This is my first career; i'm still just trying to learn the ins-and-outs of the fleet boat TDC. Next career will definitely be a DiD affair, no saves/loads due to misses, and potentially no external cam.

As for convoy detection, I've seen _very_ few merchants contact reports plotted directly on the map (but not none, just one every once and a while). I've never seen a convoy or TF plotted on the map. I get the FLASH reports that talk about convoy whereabouts, and I've been able to use these effectively; I really like this functionality. My question is: are the FLASH reports supposed to replace the SH3-style radio report plot on the map (e.g., convoy, slow, NNE)? Or are map plots for convoy/TFs just really really rare?

[Ducimus]

I'm not sure how the Flash reports work in RSRD. Are you getting a popup message? If so its probably something scripted.

Radio reports in general, work just like SH3.

As to the US TDC, you an work it like a german one. I've never had time to learn the method, but i think its called the "Dick O'kane" method. He doesn't use the Position Keeper. Rockin Robbins has posted a tutorial on it somewhere. Try checking this thread:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795

As to making the game more challenging, has been a driving factor behind ALOT of the things ive done. The stock game sucks. No denything that, and as a student of both the PTO and ATO, i cannot in good concious make the JP ASW as good as the allies. My goal is harder, but just short of what i call, "atlantic hard". It has to be plausible. So what i'll typically do is find some excuse to increase the difficulty.

Take planes for instance. With SD radar, you may as well remove them from the game. What are the chances of being caught on the surface? Then, while putsing around, discovered how to make planes detect submerged objects. Well, thats great, it makes them a threat again, but how am i going to put that in the game and be in context ? Ah Hah! pacific waters were clearer, there's my way to bring this in!

Or another one of my favorites. The type C and D escorts. They had a crapload of throwers, i decided to leave a couple extra throwers on. In theme, its historically accurate, in specifics, i took some minor artistic license, by a fudge factor of 2 y guns. The excuse i used here is, "nobody will notice a couple extra Y guns during play, they'll be too busy crapping their pants". It wasn't specifics i was looking for anyway, it was the end result while still being plausible to the theater.

One thing that throws a monkey wrench is thermal layers. I love them as a player, but as a modder i hate 'em. It's very hard to adjust sensors without lowering the effectiveness of the layer. Something i tried to avoid. However in version 2.0, the effectiveness of thermoclines is indeed reduced for AI passive. Doing so has allowed me to obtain a more sane setting both above and below the layer.

[Ian_L]

Just to add my 2 cents here, as a guy who doesn't play alot and certainly doesn't really find the game too easy...

...because I don't play alot (once or twice a week, 3-4 hours each), I'm usually quite conservative in my tactics (i.e. wuss). However, don't you guys feel that, being in a real boat the captains would certainly have had less encounters with convoys and escorts than most of the hardcore simmers get in one week of play, and therefore would certainly be more of a wuss and also be less familiar with the enemy's tactics?

In other words, it's not really the game that needs to be harder, but if a real captain had had as much practice as you guys, they too would find it easy?

Ian

[Keelbuster]

Originally Posted by Ian_L

Just to add my 2 cents here, as a guy who doesn't play alot and certainly doesn't really find the game too easy...

...because I don't play alot (once or twice a week, 3-4 hours each), I'm usually quite conservative in my tactics (i.e. wuss). However, don't you guys feel that, being in a real boat the captains would certainly have had less encounters with convoys and escorts than most of the hardcore simmers get in one week of play, and therefore would certainly be more of a wuss and also be less familiar with the enemy's tactics?

In other words, it's not really the game that needs to be harder, but if a real captain had had as much practice as you guys, they too would find it easy?

Ian

Hey,

not sure if you played SH3, but in SH3 with GWX, etc...modded to hell, it was dangerous. In the late war (e.g., > '42), every attack was a risk.

There are three components to a submarine attack (as I see it).

1) there is the identification of, and accumulation of knowledge about, the target - that includes what it is, where it is, and where it is going and how fast.

2) getting into position and attacking. Getting into position can be hard, but if you're lucky (e.g., he's coming across your bow) then it is not a big deal. The attack is also somewhat given, because if you know the information from 1), it is a mathematical thing - no big deal. These first two parts sum to the question: 'how do i kill my enemy'.

3) Getting away. This is (potentially) the more important aspect of an attack. In the Atlantic, in SH3, getting away was the big problem. You could learn a lot about your target, so much so that you would be able to sneak in to a convoy, make your attack, destroy some really juicy stuff inside, and then you would smile...but you still had to get away. Every big convoy you attacked meant a major risk. And in the late war, it was almost suicide. In SH3, after about late 43, early 44, i would only attack from long range (like 3km or 4km from the farthest escort). This is insane range, but with the pattern-running torps available then you can really sink some stuff - _provided_ that your work in 1) is sound.

[Ducimus]

Personally, knowing how the AI works, i view attack and evasion as nothing more then an excercise of threading a needle as you manuever your boat in just the right fashion. Thread it right, you succeed. Thread it wrong, you fail. I think the biggest variance is how wide the eye of that needle is. Small eye, hard to thread. Big eye, easy to thread.

All AI modifications are ultimately play out as nothing more then threading a needle. Again, the only varience between mods, is how large the eye of the needle is that it is asking you to thread. The other variance, is in the players ability to thread needles. But at any rate, it's all a very mechanic process in my view. No mystery or pageantry involved at all, which is probably why i haven't played in over a year.

edit: BTW keelbuster, If i wanted to, i could quite easily ifgiven enough time to properly test it, whip up an AI that would make you think GWX was easy. lol

[Steiger]

Are the current depth charges powerful enough? During bouts of curiosity, I have allowed charges to go off very close to the boat, with direct hits not being all that impressive, damage-wise. I was under the impression that a single direct hit would sink a boat, like what happened to the Lagarto.

[Ducimus]

That depends if you lost hull integrity or not. I've seen two kinds of close end ash cans. One tends to cause some damage to the bulkhead and cause some flooding for a time, but leaves the hull integrity alone.

Thats fine in my book. Adds some realism i think. I like the idea of incurring repairs and flooding while under attack. Im technical game terms, it damaged the bulkhead equipment item and leaks started.

The other causes hull integrity loss. Those are the fatal ones, and ive seen those in testing too.. Generally speaking a depth charge in real world terms has to be very close to crack a hole in the "people tank."

As an aside you may find these damage reports interesting.

[Hylander_1314]

Using TMO 1.9, and when in need of a good DC nailbiter, I go hang out in the Bungo Straits or just off them in the deep water. Good ole Bungo Pete makes things a joy.

[Admiral8Q]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

As to making the game more challenging, has been a driving factor behind ALOT of the things ive done. The stock game sucks. No denything that, and as a student of both the PTO and ATO, i cannot in good concious make the JP ASW as good as the allies. My goal is harder, but just short of what i call, "atlantic hard". It has to be plausible. So what i'll typically do is find some excuse to increase the difficulty.

The stock game does not suck, for beginners it's a good way to learn the game. I admit as an experienced player it's a bit too easy though. Don't make the JP ASW as good as the allies. If I want that I'll play SH3 again. The faulty torpedoes of the Mk 14's more then makes up for that.

Originally Posted by Ducimus

Take planes for instance. With SD radar, you may as well remove them from the game. What are the chances of being caught on the surface? Then, while putsing around, discovered how to make planes detect submerged objects. Well, thats great, it makes them a threat again, but how am i going to put that in the game and be in context ? Ah Hah! pacific waters were clearer, there's my way to bring this in!

I agree about either removing them from the game, or having them show up on the map again and have them as they were in stock. Otherwise just get rid of them all together. It kills alot of time diving then surfacing then diving then surfacing...

But if they aren't so Uber as they've become, then I may deck it out on the surface once in a while.

Don't make them detect a sub submerged. That's just wrong.

P.S. I love TMO 1.9 so far!