Cimmaron Tanker Tonnage

RFB Team · 03-25-10, 05:04 AM

The game by default has this ship listed as 7600 tons, which, upon looking around the net, seems to have been this ship's light displacement. However, in WW2, the Germans recorded merchant tonnage as Gross Registered Tonnage (GRT), which, according to the links below, would make this ship a 11,335-ton ship.

http://www.t2tanker.org/ships/t3s2a1.html
http://www.usmm.org/tankers.html#anchor403810

(Look at the T3-S2-A1 entry).

So, is it correct to conclude, then, that this ship should count for a lot more tonnage than is currently the case?

bigboywooly · 03-25-10, 06:49 AM

Quote:

The ships were 553 feet long overall, 75 feet wide with a gross tonnage of 11,335 tons, deadweight capacity of 18,300 tons, and a full load displacement of 24,830 tons

If GRT was the one used then yes should be 11,335
I imagine the others are out also
And there was me complaining tonnages were too high already

Galanti · 03-25-10, 06:53 AM

Well, personally I'm using the model as a stand-in for a generic large tanker, because, if we're being realistic, the Cimarron was a USN-only fleet repleshment oiler (when they weren't converted to escort carriers. So I've got the baseline tonnage at around 8000 with a variation of 3000 tons either way (the displacementvariation parameter appears to go both ways, btw, I thought it just added to the base tonnage). I've also renamed it to just 'Large Tanker'.

With the limited shipset, we've got ATM, I just don't see any point to applying realistic stats to the merchant vessels. IMO make them as generic as possible. Same with the Hog Island. Make it a generic small to medium merchant, until we get more ships.

LukeFF · 03-25-10, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galanti

Well, personally I'm using the model as a stand-in for a generic large tanker, because, if we're being realistic, the Cimarron was a USN-only fleet repleshment oiler (when they weren't converted to escort carriers. So I've got the baseline tonnage at around 8000 with a variation of 3000 tons either way (the displacementvariation parameter appears to go both ways, btw, I thought it just added to the base tonnage). I've also renamed it to just 'Large Tanker'.

That is a quandary, because technically these Cimmaron tankers were under the command of the USN, so the technically correct tonnage that should be applied to them would be their Standard or Light Displacement. However, since the game treats them as a merchant, and GRT was used when crediting merchant tonnage, the GRT tonnage value would be correct.

But yeah, right now the merchant variety in the game stinks, so it may be necessary right now to not be so strict about tonnage values.

LukeFF · 03-25-10, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigboywooly

If GRT was the one used then yes should be 11,335
I imagine the others are out also

Actually, the other ships are all pretty close to what they should be. The only other one I've found to be off is the the C2.

Sailor Steve · 03-25-10, 06:17 PM

The Cimmaron class should indeed have a standardized GRT of 11,335 tons.

The only two specific listings I've been able to find (because they travelled once in a British convoy) are Chemung, which is 11,335 tons, and Salamonie, which for some reason they say was registered at 11,316 tons.

I have specific GRTs for a lot of C2s, but if it's randomized then SH3's 6200 is pretty close.

LukeFF · 03-25-10, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I have specific GRTs for a lot of C2s, but if it's randomized then SH3's 6200 is pretty close.

According to the game, the C2 modeled is the S-B1 variant. The game models it at 7600 tons, while the USMM website lists it at 6230 tons.

Sailor Steve · 03-25-10, 06:39 PM

Oh yeah, the C2s. Some sub-variants are listed as low as 6100 tons, some as high as 8335 (the C2-S-AJ1). I too have 6230 for the C2-S-B1. Those are all civilian ships.

African Dawn 6507
African Star 6507
African Sun 6507
Bald Eagle 6178
Blue Jacket 6180
Golden Eagle 6180
Great Republic 6178

There are a lot more of them that I don't have the specific GRT listings, and a lot of other C2 classes I do; those are just the C2-S-B1s I have at present.

Interestingly, I do have one C2-S, Empire Curlew which is rated at 7101 GRT. It is the ex-Robin Doncaster, and its sister ships of the Robin Line - Robin Locksley, Robin Sherwood, Robin Tuxford and Robin Wentley - are group-rated at 7101. That is still a bit shy of 7600, but it may be where they got the idea from.

Arclight · 03-25-10, 08:01 PM

Was there much difference visually between C1A and C1B?

Was thinking of, well, cheating and just cloning the model of C1B, lower the tonnage and draft and call it C1A.

Sailor Steve · 03-25-10, 08:11 PM

Do you mean the C2? Or is there a C1 model in the game?

Arclight · 03-25-10, 09:01 PM

C1 (C1-B ingame). Forgive me from basing this of wiki, but the C1-A is listed as 5028GRT compared to 6750 for C1-B.

The difference is that the A had a "shelter deck", while the B had "full scantling". Those terms aren't really familiar to me, and can't really find any illustrations.

Apart from the draft and tonnage, the dimensions are the same. Thought it might be a step towards more variety, though a "dirty" one.

Sailor Steve · 03-26-10, 10:43 AM

"Shelter Deck" means that the scantlings (frames) stop one deck below the weather deck, and that first lower deck is open.

"Full Scantling" means that the scantlings go up to the weather deck. There is no visible difference, but that accounts for the weight difference. The dimensions are indeed the same.

The major difference in the types is that the "Full Scantling" ships can reach all cargo holds with their own cranes. The "Shelter Deck" types need external dock cranes to reach some holds.

Here are pictures of both:
http://drawings.usmaritimecommission.de/drawings_c1.htm

And the links to pictures of all US Maritime Commission types:
http://drawings.usmaritimecommission.de/drawingmain.htm

Arclight · 03-26-10, 10:57 AM

Excellent, thank you very much.

Slap on a new coat of paint, alter some settings and we could pass it of as a C1-A. Even 1 more ship-type would be welcome at this point imho.

Now if I only had some texturing skills.

* great resource there, btw

03-25-10, 05:04 AM	#1
RFB Team SH4 Mod Team Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 165 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Cimmaron Tanker Tonnage The game by default has this ship listed as 7600 tons, which, upon looking around the net, seems to have been this ship's light displacement. However, in WW2, the Germans recorded merchant tonnage as Gross Registered Tonnage (GRT), which, according to the links below, would make this ship a 11,335-ton ship. http://www.t2tanker.org/ships/t3s2a1.html http://www.usmm.org/tankers.html#anchor403810 (Look at the T3-S2-A1 entry). So, is it correct to conclude, then, that this ship should count for a lot more tonnage than is currently the case? __________________ Thanks for everyone's encouragement and support. The RFB team is an open group and our work is open to anyone. Although we have a separate forum for development and testing, it is not a private forum, so you can drop in and see what's going on or contribute. The forum is open to other developers that need a place to exchange ideas too. http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php...647a9120c08614

03-25-10, 06:17 PM	#6
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	The Cimmaron class should indeed have a standardized GRT of 11,335 tons. The only two specific listings I've been able to find (because they travelled once in a British convoy) are Chemung, which is 11,335 tons, and Salamonie, which for some reason they say was registered at 11,316 tons. I have specific GRTs for a lot of C2s, but if it's randomized then SH3's 6200 is pretty close. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-25-10, 06:39 PM	#8
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Oh yeah, the C2s. Some sub-variants are listed as low as 6100 tons, some as high as 8335 (the C2-S-AJ1). I too have 6230 for the C2-S-B1. Those are all civilian ships. African Dawn 6507 African Star 6507 African Sun 6507 Bald Eagle 6178 Blue Jacket 6180 Golden Eagle 6180 Great Republic 6178 There are a lot more of them that I don't have the specific GRT listings, and a lot of other C2 classes I do; those are just the C2-S-B1s I have at present. Interestingly, I do have one C2-S, Empire Curlew which is rated at 7101 GRT. It is the ex-Robin Doncaster, and its sister ships of the Robin Line - Robin Locksley, Robin Sherwood, Robin Tuxford and Robin Wentley - are group-rated at 7101. That is still a bit shy of 7600, but it may be where they got the idea from. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo Last edited by Sailor Steve; 03-25-10 at 08:25 PM.

03-25-10, 08:01 PM	#9
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Was there much difference visually between C1A and C1B? Was thinking of, well, cheating and just cloning the model of C1B, lower the tonnage and draft and call it C1A. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

03-25-10, 08:11 PM	#10
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Do you mean the C2? Or is there a C1 model in the game? __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-25-10, 06:53 AM	#3
Galanti Captain Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ottawa Posts: 536 Downloads: 106 Uploads: 0	Well, personally I'm using the model as a stand-in for a generic large tanker, because, if we're being realistic, the Cimarron was a USN-only fleet repleshment oiler (when they weren't converted to escort carriers. So I've got the baseline tonnage at around 8000 with a variation of 3000 tons either way (the displacementvariation parameter appears to go both ways, btw, I thought it just added to the base tonnage). I've also renamed it to just 'Large Tanker'. With the limited shipset, we've got ATM, I just don't see any point to applying realistic stats to the merchant vessels. IMO make them as generic as possible. Same with the Hog Island. Make it a generic small to medium merchant, until we get more ships.

03-25-10, 09:01 PM	#11
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	C1 (C1-B ingame). Forgive me from basing this of wiki, but the C1-A is listed as 5028GRT compared to 6750 for C1-B. The difference is that the A had a "shelter deck", while the B had "full scantling". Those terms aren't really familiar to me, and can't really find any illustrations. Apart from the draft and tonnage, the dimensions are the same. Thought it might be a step towards more variety, though a "dirty" one. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

03-26-10, 10:43 AM	#12
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	"Shelter Deck" means that the scantlings (frames) stop one deck below the weather deck, and that first lower deck is open. "Full Scantling" means that the scantlings go up to the weather deck. There is no visible difference, but that accounts for the weight difference. The dimensions are indeed the same. The major difference in the types is that the "Full Scantling" ships can reach all cargo holds with their own cranes. The "Shelter Deck" types need external dock cranes to reach some holds. Here are pictures of both: http://drawings.usmaritimecommission.de/drawings_c1.htm And the links to pictures of all US Maritime Commission types: http://drawings.usmaritimecommission.de/drawingmain.htm __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

03-26-10, 10:57 AM	#13
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Excellent, thank you very much. Slap on a new coat of paint, alter some settings and we could pass it of as a C1-A. Even 1 more ship-type would be welcome at this point imho. Now if I only had some texturing skills. * great resource there, btw __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.