Prob with torpedo solutions (again)

Echo76 · 03-11-10, 05:56 AM

I make this quick: @ longer ranges (4km or so) I tend to miss crapload of torps by the ships bow even if I use the cross the T approach. What I've noticed that if I select 2kts less speed than indicated by map update I get excellent hit ratio, any idea what might be causing that?

P.S. @ same range, would +/- 100 meters error in range be critical, I really suck in math.

emtguf · 03-11-10, 02:37 PM

Exact range isn't as critical as AOB and speed. Sure the AOB is correct?
Are they zigzaging?
since you have map contacts up you should be able to measure exactly from your bow to their ship right before firing and put that number in.
AOB same draw a line to their stern from your bow, and then out to their bow for the AOB.

Echo76 · 03-11-10, 03:46 PM

Yes I'm drawing the line as you mentioned and no zigzagging.
Although i notice the destroyer screen becoming active as the torps enter the perimeter, maybe the capital ship alters speed or course somewhat, I need to study this more I guess.

emtguf · 03-11-10, 03:56 PM

Yeah they maybe seeing your bubbles from the torp and reacting. Set depth a little lower and see if it keeps happeneing.

longam · 03-11-10, 04:42 PM

Just had to post this, found it in the game files

Echo76 · 03-11-10, 04:59 PM

Thx, now my eyes are bleeding :p

Arclight · 03-11-10, 08:32 PM

Using a calculated lead angle and firing the torpedo on 0deg gyro is no longer possible after you get the passive skill for your torpedo man that increases the damage and speed.

Since the torpedoes are actually travelling faster than you think, they all go in front. Nowhere does it say what the actual speed is; even after spending 5 points to max out the skill, G7e is still listed at 28kts.

Had me scratching my head as well when I tried adopting my familiar tactics from SH4.

Possible that the TDC doesn't take the new speed into the calculation either btw, though that 'TDC off' method with lining up the numbers still gives good accuracy.

(always relatively short range though)

karamazovnew · 03-11-10, 08:35 PM

Arclight,

That's the funniest bug I've ever seen in a game

Arclight · 03-11-10, 08:38 PM

It's a little silly, isn't it?

Imho they expected everyone to use the number thingy, rather than doing some actual trigonometry.

Echo76 · 03-11-10, 09:11 PM

Bloody hell that must be it as I got the skill maxed out. This really has been driving me crazy!
Although, the skill says it increases damage and max range? How did you figure it affects speed also?

Arclight · 03-11-10, 09:28 PM

You could try posting a request for info in the mod section: there has to be a file which details how much speed, probably in %, get's added by the skill. Say 1 skill point adds 2%, then full skill adds 10%, and the actual speed for a G7e would be 30.8kts.

Maybe one of the modders already came across it or knows where to look.

* dang, you're right no mention of speed.

Must have seen what I wanted to see.

DedEye · 03-11-10, 09:29 PM

I noticed this using pre-heated torpedoes on auto-TDC mode, so no longer use this ability.

I do have points in the range/warhead passive one and haven't had any problems (yet?)

Echo76 · 03-11-10, 09:32 PM

Alright, appreciated for the help, thanks a lot.

Echo76 · 03-11-10, 10:10 PM

Did a quick test with torps by drawing a 1km line and a 2km line, time results with game chrono were 37 and 75 seconds. So s=v/t gave 26.3 m/s and 26.6 m/s.

1kt being 0.5144 m/s gave the speed of 51.8 kts so obviously if the TDC don't add the speed bonus you'll have a hard time hitting anything from far...
Seems quite a radical speed, could some one else test this too, I'm too tired atm to think anything anymore

Steeltrap · 03-11-10, 11:02 PM

Echo, it's 20+ years since I did physics, but I think speed = distance/t, not v/t.

1000m/37s = 27.03m/s
2000m/75s = 26.67m/s
I suspect the speed is constant, the difference being one of rounding. I'm being picky; your calculations are correct.

IF the torpedo speed is altering and the TDC does not compensate for it, that's just plain daft.

That aside, I have a few questions:

1. Fast 90
Is it still possible to do 'fast 90' calculations and tie your periscope to it? I always used to work the target base course and come to a course that was between 30 degrees either side of it i.e. an AoB of between 60 and 120. I'd set that in the TDC along with target speed.

After that it was simply a case of lining up the target, set range before firinig, then BOOM.

The advantage of this is you don't NEED to keep estimating AoB for different targets on the same course i.e. a convoy. The German system was designed with this in mind, I think. It made 'rapid' shooting at multiple targets comparitively simple.

2. Zigzag/course changes
As an aside, do convoys 'zigzag', especially when attacked? This really bugged me in SH3 as it is pretty much entirely ahistorical. Convoys did NOT suddenly alter course when attacked, nor did they zigzag. They did alter course if aware of submarines ahead of them from a strategic sense i.e. intel warnings, HFDF intercepts etc. These changes would often occur at the falling of darkness or the coming of dawn.

They did NOT alter course in a tactical sense as they were simply not that well drilled. Keeping station on varying courses with different ships not accustomed to manoeuvring as a fleet was a difficult thing to do, all too likely to break up the convoy's formation and/or result in collisions.

All this is clearly available reference material.

Would appreciate any answers people might have.

Cheers

03-11-10, 05:56 AM	#1
Echo76 Loader Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Prob with torpedo solutions (again) I make this quick: @ longer ranges (4km or so) I tend to miss crapload of torps by the ships bow even if I use the cross the T approach. What I've noticed that if I select 2kts less speed than indicated by map update I get excellent hit ratio, any idea what might be causing that? P.S. @ same range, would +/- 100 meters error in range be critical, I really suck in math. Last edited by Echo76; 03-11-10 at 06:12 AM. Reason: typo

03-11-10, 08:32 PM	#7
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	Using a calculated lead angle and firing the torpedo on 0deg gyro is no longer possible after you get the passive skill for your torpedo man that increases the damage and speed. Since the torpedoes are actually travelling faster than you think, they all go in front. Nowhere does it say what the actual speed is; even after spending 5 points to max out the skill, G7e is still listed at 28kts. Had me scratching my head as well when I tried adopting my familiar tactics from SH4. Possible that the TDC doesn't take the new speed into the calculation either btw, though that 'TDC off' method with lining up the numbers still gives good accuracy. (always relatively short range though) __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

03-11-10, 08:38 PM	#9
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	It's a little silly, isn't it? Imho they expected everyone to use the number thingy, rather than doing some actual trigonometry. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

03-11-10, 09:11 PM	#10
Echo76 Loader Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Bloody hell that must be it as I got the skill maxed out. This really has been driving me crazy! Although, the skill says it increases damage and max range? How did you figure it affects speed also? Last edited by Echo76; 03-11-10 at 09:25 PM.

03-11-10, 09:28 PM	#11
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	You could try posting a request for info in the mod section: there has to be a file which details how much speed, probably in %, get's added by the skill. Say 1 skill point adds 2%, then full skill adds 10%, and the actual speed for a G7e would be 30.8kts. Maybe one of the modders already came across it or knows where to look. * dang, you're right no mention of speed. Must have seen what I wanted to see. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

03-11-10, 02:37 PM	#2
emtguf Machinist's Mate Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 128 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 3	Exact range isn't as critical as AOB and speed. Sure the AOB is correct? Are they zigzaging? since you have map contacts up you should be able to measure exactly from your bow to their ship right before firing and put that number in. AOB same draw a line to their stern from your bow, and then out to their bow for the AOB.

03-11-10, 03:46 PM	#3
Echo76 Loader Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Yes I'm drawing the line as you mentioned and no zigzagging. Although i notice the destroyer screen becoming active as the torps enter the perimeter, maybe the capital ship alters speed or course somewhat, I need to study this more I guess.

03-11-10, 03:56 PM	#4
emtguf Machinist's Mate Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 128 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 3	Yeah they maybe seeing your bubbles from the torp and reacting. Set depth a little lower and see if it keeps happeneing.

03-11-10, 04:42 PM	#5
longam Admiral Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,014 Downloads: 26 Uploads: 0	Just had to post this, found it in the game files

03-11-10, 04:59 PM	#6
Echo76 Loader Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Thx, now my eyes are bleeding :p

03-11-10, 08:35 PM	#8
karamazovnew The Old Man Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,403 Downloads: 151 Uploads: 0	Arclight, That's the funniest bug I've ever seen in a game

03-11-10, 09:29 PM	#12
DedEye Electrician's Mate Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Edmonton Posts: 133 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	I noticed this using pre-heated torpedoes on auto-TDC mode, so no longer use this ability. I do have points in the range/warhead passive one and haven't had any problems (yet?) __________________ U-Boot Spezial Cocktail......neidisch?

03-11-10, 09:32 PM	#13
Echo76 Loader Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Alright, appreciated for the help, thanks a lot.

03-11-10, 10:10 PM	#14
Echo76 Loader Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 83 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	Did a quick test with torps by drawing a 1km line and a 2km line, time results with game chrono were 37 and 75 seconds. So s=v/t gave 26.3 m/s and 26.6 m/s. 1kt being 0.5144 m/s gave the speed of 51.8 kts so obviously if the TDC don't add the speed bonus you'll have a hard time hitting anything from far... Seems quite a radical speed, could some one else test this too, I'm too tired atm to think anything anymore

03-11-10, 11:02 PM	#15
Steeltrap Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2001 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 818 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Echo, it's 20+ years since I did physics, but I think speed = distance/t, not v/t. 1000m/37s = 27.03m/s 2000m/75s = 26.67m/s I suspect the speed is constant, the difference being one of rounding. I'm being picky; your calculations are correct. IF the torpedo speed is altering and the TDC does not compensate for it, that's just plain daft. That aside, I have a few questions: 1. Fast 90 Is it still possible to do 'fast 90' calculations and tie your periscope to it? I always used to work the target base course and come to a course that was between 30 degrees either side of it i.e. an AoB of between 60 and 120. I'd set that in the TDC along with target speed. After that it was simply a case of lining up the target, set range before firinig, then BOOM. The advantage of this is you don't NEED to keep estimating AoB for different targets on the same course i.e. a convoy. The German system was designed with this in mind, I think. It made 'rapid' shooting at multiple targets comparitively simple. 2. Zigzag/course changes As an aside, do convoys 'zigzag', especially when attacked? This really bugged me in SH3 as it is pretty much entirely ahistorical. Convoys did NOT suddenly alter course when attacked, nor did they zigzag. They did alter course if aware of submarines ahead of them from a strategic sense i.e. intel warnings, HFDF intercepts etc. These changes would often occur at the falling of darkness or the coming of dawn. They did NOT alter course in a tactical sense as they were simply not that well drilled. Keeping station on varying courses with different ships not accustomed to manoeuvring as a fleet was a difficult thing to do, all too likely to break up the convoy's formation and/or result in collisions. All this is clearly available reference material. Would appreciate any answers people might have. Cheers