The Drone Wars

SteamWake · 10-08-09, 11:00 AM

Short video discussing the use of drones in Afghanistan.

The part I found most supprising, if I understand this correctly, the drones flying about in the middle east are piloted by people in the United States.

It must be a strange feeling to be so far removed from the action. Like playing a video game except your actually killing people. I'm not so sure thats healthy.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video0...com/index.html

Dowly · 10-08-09, 11:10 AM

Surprising indeed. Wouldnt there be issues with lag? Not a big lag, but surely there must be somekind of delay between orders being received by the drone and info being received by the operator?

SteamWake · 10-08-09, 11:24 AM

Well its not like they are dogfighting, there just cruising around at 10,000 feet dropping bombs on bad guys.

Platapus · 10-08-09, 12:20 PM

And not all that different from long range artillery or the more modern stand-off air to surface weapons we have.

We are moving the fighter further from the fighting. This may be a good idea or a bad idea.

On one hand it is good to make it easy for the military member to kill the enemy.

On the other hand is it good to make it easy for the military member to kill the enemy?

Especially when it is not always the enemy that ends up being killed.

Morts · 10-08-09, 12:43 PM

*edit*
wrong thread

MothBalls · 10-08-09, 02:27 PM

No different than looking through a periscope. If it takes our pilots out of harms way, it's a good thing. It doesn't get scary until they start to operate autonomously. Then you need to be afraid.

CaptainHaplo · 10-08-09, 06:58 PM

Actually - having the "crew" back in the US is a positive in more ways than one. Of course - the first is the safety issue. Saving the lives of the soldiers.

But the second benefit is that these soldiers are not in theatre. Thus they can go home to their families, they have deep resources for any type of counselling their jobs may cause them to seek.

Lastly - and an often overlooked positive - is that keeping them out of a hot zone reduces stress and the "vengeance" syndrome. A strike is carried out by someone not in the zone, not under constant, 24/7 combat pressure. That alone makes the decisions have an additional safety factor. A officer on the ground, having just gotten shot at, might choose to risk civilian casualties to take out a suspected bad guy. A guy sitting in a building safe and sound with all the intel and a line to the big dogs handy can often make a "safer" decision.

Neither will be right 100% of the time - but taking the "hot" stress out of the decision means less civilian casualties.

PeriscopeDepth · 10-09-09, 01:23 AM

Drones with missiles are perhaps the best weapon in the targeted killings against "leadership targets". Just 10 years ago we were looking at a minimum of what, 2-4 hours from approval to shoot TLAMs from a platform in the Indian Ocean to impact somewhere in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Now it's more like ten minutes from the drone. And the intel is way more solid not relying on locals with radios any more. And collateral, while still present, goes from what comes with a half ton warhead to a hellfire.

PD

TarJak · 10-11-09, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Actually - having the "crew" back in the US is a positive in more ways than one. Of course - the first is the safety issue. Saving the lives of the soldiers.

But the second benefit is that these soldiers are not in theatre. Thus they can go home to their families, they have deep resources for any type of counselling their jobs may cause them to seek.

Lastly - and an often overlooked positive - is that keeping them out of a hot zone reduces stress and the "vengeance" syndrome. A strike is carried out by someone not in the zone, not under constant, 24/7 combat pressure. That alone makes the decisions have an additional safety factor. A officer on the ground, having just gotten shot at, might choose to risk civilian casualties to take out a suspected bad guy. A guy sitting in a building safe and sound with all the intel and a line to the big dogs handy can often make a "safer" decision.

Neither will be right 100% of the time - but taking the "hot" stress out of the decision means less civilian casualties.

The big kicker is that they don't get theatre pay either.

CaptainHaplo · 10-11-09, 11:21 PM

I can see not paying them the Theatre offset.

Whats more in question - do they get the combat adjustment?

I would suspect not.

There should be SOME offset since it truly is more than a "video game training session".

MothBalls · 10-12-09, 12:29 AM

So I wonder how long before someone decides a computer can fly the drones better than a human can. Eventually both sides will have computerized weapons, and soldiers and pilots will be removed from the battlefield.

This scenario reminds me of an old Star Trek Episode:

A Taste of Armageddon
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708414/plotsummary

Quote:

On a mission to establish diplomatic relations, Kirk and Spock beam down to the planet to learn that its inhabitants have been at war with a neighboring planet for over 500 years. They can find no damage and no evidence of destruction. They soon learn that the war is essentially a war game where each planet attacks the other in a computer simulation with the victims voluntarily surrendering themselves for execution after the fact.

You can watch the episode on veoh:
http://www.veoh.com/collection/CBS-S...438381qXfQZhcF

SteamWake · 10-12-09, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MothBalls

So I wonder how long before someone decides a computer can fly the drones better than a human can. Eventually both sides will have computerized weapons, and soldiers and pilots will be removed from the battlefield.

This scenario reminds me of an old Star Trek Episode:

A Taste of Armageddon
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0708414/plotsummary

You can watch the episode on veoh:
http://www.veoh.com/collection/CBS-S...438381qXfQZhcF

I remember that one. The kicker was no one knew why the war had started in the first place.

SteamWake · 10-26-09, 01:09 PM

Some more thoughts on the Drone Wars

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fox News

As the Obama administration considers relying more heavily on remote-controlled drones to attack militants along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there are increasing concerns that the military will risk losing the hearts and minds of civilians along the way.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...-hearts-minds/

CNYBubblehead · 10-26-09, 10:10 PM

This is actually quite a hot-button topic here in my neck of the woods, because our local National Guard fighter wing is transitioning from F-16s to the MQ-9 Reaper. While there's the one side of the coin that it could keep individuals from developing combat-induced stress (I personally hope they still have plenty of mental-health services available to them, 'cuz in my book, they're still combat vets!), I can also see the possibility that it could almost desensitize someone, too. I guess it's a fine line to walk. Whatever their role in the conflict, I'm just glad they're serving.

When all is said and done, though, I think the move to the Reaper is a fantastic thing for the wing, even though I'll miss what I lovingly call my Saturday morning "wake-up call"...hearing the -16s zip over my house at 8:30 a.m. when the pilots are training.

Zachstar · 10-27-09, 12:22 AM

The drones have saved more lives then we will ever know. Do you remember what the losses were like in Iraq until Drones were brought in in more numbers?

Drones are winning the war in Afghanistan no its not the quickest thing ever and there are serious losses. But the enemy now fears not being able to do the attack now. They never feared perishing in the attack but the fear of not doing their deed for their god is a pretty good bit of discouragement.

BTW the process of an attack is not just press a button and go. Approaval has to be given for every shot. Often news reports talk of how drones will sometimes hover for hours waiting for the targets to group together and gathering valuable intel.

10-08-09, 11:00 AM	#1
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The Drone Wars Short video discussing the use of drones in Afghanistan. The part I found most supprising, if I understand this correctly, the drones flying about in the middle east are piloted by people in the United States. It must be a strange feeling to be so far removed from the action. Like playing a video game except your actually killing people. I'm not so sure thats healthy. http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video0...com/index.html __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

10-08-09, 11:24 AM	#3
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Well its not like they are dogfighting, there just cruising around at 10,000 feet dropping bombs on bad guys. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

10-08-09, 12:20 PM	#4
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,360 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	And not all that different from long range artillery or the more modern stand-off air to surface weapons we have. We are moving the fighter further from the fighting. This may be a good idea or a bad idea. On one hand it is good to make it easy for the military member to kill the enemy. On the other hand is it good to make it easy for the military member to kill the enemy? Especially when it is not always the enemy that ends up being killed. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

10-08-09, 06:58 PM	#7
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Actually - having the "crew" back in the US is a positive in more ways than one. Of course - the first is the safety issue. Saving the lives of the soldiers. But the second benefit is that these soldiers are not in theatre. Thus they can go home to their families, they have deep resources for any type of counselling their jobs may cause them to seek. Lastly - and an often overlooked positive - is that keeping them out of a hot zone reduces stress and the "vengeance" syndrome. A strike is carried out by someone not in the zone, not under constant, 24/7 combat pressure. That alone makes the decisions have an additional safety factor. A officer on the ground, having just gotten shot at, might choose to risk civilian casualties to take out a suspected bad guy. A guy sitting in a building safe and sound with all the intel and a line to the big dogs handy can often make a "safer" decision. Neither will be right 100% of the time - but taking the "hot" stress out of the decision means less civilian casualties. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

10-11-09, 11:21 PM	#10
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	I can see not paying them the Theatre offset. Whats more in question - do they get the combat adjustment? I would suspect not. There should be SOME offset since it truly is more than a "video game training session". __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

10-08-09, 11:10 AM	#2
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,052 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	Surprising indeed. Wouldnt there be issues with lag? Not a big lag, but surely there must be somekind of delay between orders being received by the drone and info being received by the operator?

10-08-09, 12:43 PM	#5
Morts Admiral Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 2,395 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	edit wrong thread

10-08-09, 02:27 PM	#6
MothBalls Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	No different than looking through a periscope. If it takes our pilots out of harms way, it's a good thing. It doesn't get scary until they start to operate autonomously. Then you need to be afraid.

10-09-09, 01:23 AM	#8
PeriscopeDepth Sea Lord Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Pacific NW Posts: 1,894 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Drones with missiles are perhaps the best weapon in the targeted killings against "leadership targets". Just 10 years ago we were looking at a minimum of what, 2-4 hours from approval to shoot TLAMs from a platform in the Indian Ocean to impact somewhere in Afghanistan/Pakistan. Now it's more like ten minutes from the drone. And the intel is way more solid not relying on locals with radios any more. And collateral, while still present, goes from what comes with a half ton warhead to a hellfire. PD

10-26-09, 10:10 PM	#14
CNYBubblehead Watch Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Maryland Posts: 15 Downloads: 73 Uploads: 0	This is actually quite a hot-button topic here in my neck of the woods, because our local National Guard fighter wing is transitioning from F-16s to the MQ-9 Reaper. While there's the one side of the coin that it could keep individuals from developing combat-induced stress (I personally hope they still have plenty of mental-health services available to them, 'cuz in my book, they're still combat vets!), I can also see the possibility that it could almost desensitize someone, too. I guess it's a fine line to walk. Whatever their role in the conflict, I'm just glad they're serving. When all is said and done, though, I think the move to the Reaper is a fantastic thing for the wing, even though I'll miss what I lovingly call my Saturday morning "wake-up call"...hearing the -16s zip over my house at 8:30 a.m. when the pilots are training.

10-27-09, 12:22 AM	#15
Zachstar Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Shreveport, Louisiana Posts: 1,956 Downloads: 13 Uploads: 0	The drones have saved more lives then we will ever know. Do you remember what the losses were like in Iraq until Drones were brought in in more numbers? Drones are winning the war in Afghanistan no its not the quickest thing ever and there are serious losses. But the enemy now fears not being able to do the attack now. They never feared perishing in the attack but the fear of not doing their deed for their god is a pretty good bit of discouragement. BTW the process of an attack is not just press a button and go. Approaval has to be given for every shot. Often news reports talk of how drones will sometimes hover for hours waiting for the targets to group together and gathering valuable intel. __________________