help me attack convoys in TMO

[gutted]

So i've been away from SH4 for quite awhile. Last time i played this rigourously i was using only a handful of small minor mods, none of which really altered the AI much. After a short transition from the SH3 to SH4 AI i was able to attack convoy's pretty successfully.

In TMO (using 1.8beta), it seems the AI is even better at detecting you with regards to stock. And im struggling to attack convoys without being spotted too early. I had this same problem when switching from SH3 to SH4, because the escort AI was so easy in SH3 that i developed alot of bad habits.

So i need some tips. My usual bag of tricks are failing me right now. I fear i've developed more bad habits when i grew accustomed to the stock AI.

Having a blast either way.

[Rockin Robbins]

I try to begin my carnage at sunset. This could take all night!

OK, my first shot at a convoy, I'm looking to accomplish two things: hit a large juicy target and bunch all the escorts on one side. That means my first shot is going to be from some good distance away and probably from ahead in a John P Cromwell attack. The 45º angle gives you some possibility of hitting something else in the convoy if you miss. 2500 yards/meters is a good distance, closer if you've got a strong stomach. Shoot!

Now, hit or miss, hopefully all the escorts know something's shooting from one side of the convoy. Don't waste time, do your 180 and hightail it out of there to do an end-around to the other side of the convoy. If you've done your job well, you have one merchie down and all the escorts playing ring around the rosey on one side while you approach the other.\

Now, press close and raise hell with a couple of targets, with the aim to escape again and end around again. Repeat as necessary. Hit 'em where they ain't. Radar is your friend.

Wrinkles: if you're forced down with mutiple escorts looking for you, usually one stops to listen. Don't go too deep. Always be looking for an excuse to come to periscope depth to look for that guy to plug him with a point and shoot. At night usually he won't see it in time to avoid, but shoot at the bow just to make sure. This is nearly a 100% odds-evener shot. Very satisfying.

With subchasers and coastal defense boats, they aren't that fast. You can do the Jack-in-the-Box surface, shoot two or three and submerge trick if the seas are a little rough. Don't try it in smooth water. Ask me how I know... When they start to show some caution, you can torpedo them easier or escape. Escape is always first choice. Torpedoes are for merchies.

Don't overreact. Your default is that they don't know you're there. Hit the jets at the wrong time and they've got you. Of course if they drop on top of you you go, but if they drop somewhere else, sit tight. It takes nerve. Don't be the first to blink.

Have fun! You could survive and end up in the brig like me!

[Armistead]

One thing you have to be careful with 1.8 is the escorts will see you and even attack you before your crew gives a visual contact. So when you get a sound contact be careful. It's very easy to get sunk using time compression. I think he shaved off another 2000 yards of visual to their favor. You have to be very careful until you get surface radar.

I was testing and my sub took 78% damage from DD's shooting and my crew never gave a visual contact. Here they saw me and came at me long before my crew saw them. I was shot at coming straight on. This SS was after I was trying to turn and run, but finally hit crash dive. I took several hits and you can see my last report enemy still not sighted, even though I'm almost sunk. You can barely see the smoke of the dd shooting at me in the background. Marking distance on the map, he was almost 7000 yards away.

[gutted]

wasn't looking for targetting info robbin's. I have no problem taking out ships, i just need to get to them without the escorts calling the alarm too soon.


what im looking for is how to appraoch the convoy without being spotted before i can get into position everytime. i used to appraoch from the side pretty deep, and then pop up between the outside escorts and the merchants. they would usually call the alarm shortly afterwards, but it was already too late.

example..
I'm deep and off to the side of their path at a 90 degree angle. i'd position myself so that when the lead escort was between 020-000 bearing he would be about 5000-6000m away. and i'd start moving in from 90 degrees to the side slow.

at some point i'd get inside of the escort screen, and then slowly pop up. when i hit scope depth i'd run in flank speed and start popping off targets.

cant do that anymore lol.

i used to also approach deep from the front at a 45 degree angle to minimize my sonar profile, and then turn in to 90 degrees as i start popping up for the attack. so far that hasn't worked either. always have DD's running towards me before i can even think about attacking.

[Bubblehead1980]

yea, might as well throw most of your old way of doing things from stock out the window, TMO is a whole new ball game, stock sucks compared to the mods, esp TMO.

Typical mid-late war IJN convoy has 3 or 4 escorts...usually two on the port and starboard flanks guarding against subs moving in for the side shots.

Sea conditions is a big thing, even in TMO in choppy and heavy seas, you can get away with murder, in calm seas, no.The big break is often that the flank escorts routinely venture way out in left or right field to check or to the rear, leaving one side exposed for a while, if you see this opening, go for it.

I usually try to time it where I am 1200 yards off , lets say for the purposes of this, the port escorts's track, i move in slowly, at 1 knot, if hes closer in calm seas, half a knot, once passes, back up to 1 knots and close in as close as he can, he passes and you are behind his screws, cant hear you.Sometimes you cant do this and have to make angle shots or turn towards the oncoming convoy in a sort of "point and shoot" method.

It takes time and practice but you'll get it.I laugh when I remember how I used to play in stock lol.My favorite method was to go to 250 feet or so and let the lead escort pass over me, then pop up to periscope depth and be inside the convoy, get a solution real fast(or when i was on auto target a long time ago, much easier) and shoot.It worked well in stock but in TMO, no , which is fine, i learned to adapt much more realistic tactics.

[Armistead]

I would reread what RR said, really gave you the best tactic for an attack.
I do that all the time. Even if you screw up and miss, if you time it right you're gonna leave the dd's behind. If you time it right, you can attack the convoy again why the dd's are searching where you were.

I do this all the time with night surface attacks. Shoot from a longer range and get out of there. When the dd's come looking where my torps came from I'm long gone. Then I can attack the weak point of the convoy why the dd's are gone.

[gutted]

i'll give it a go.

couple things:

should i do what RR said at night on the surface?

what speed should i be at when closing so they wont hear me?

after i fire and turn tail to get to the other side of the convoy is it ok to go flank speed? won't they hear me?

how long will the escorts typically be searching for me on the side of my initial attack. .ie how much time will i have to manuever to and attack the other "open" side.

i just have no idea what the AI capabilities are now with regards to their sensors, bothing visually & hearing.

[Rockin Robbins]

At night, flood down to about 32', or the deepest you can be with diesels still running. That saves batteries and keeps your speed below the critical 10 knots that seems to get you spotted if you exceed it. You are less detectable on sonar if you stay at or above periscope depth, and on the surface is even better for sonar. If the moon is out or sea is smooth you'll have no choice but to be at periscope depth. Dark night and rough seas call for a surface attack flooded down decks awash.

TMO gets inside your head and seems much worse than it is. With experience you'll be doing much better. Dying teaches you a lot! The important part is to hightail it out of there right after the torpedoes leave the tubes and take those first shots from a pretty long range.

I'd be sneaking away at 10 knots until I'm more than 3000 yards away, pop to the surface and hit the throttle. You'll have about a half hour, perhaps longer to hit the other side while they circle. Even after they stop circling, they take awhile to surround the convoy again.

[gutted]

i've never been able to run decks awash with the diesels on. i can get the rear under, but once the front is covered the electrics kick on.

just trid the convoy train mission, and the lowest i could get it was about 27'.

[Rockin Robbins]

That'll work!

[gutted]

Success AND Failure.


Started a new career out of manila in a Sargo. Was tasked witha patrol in the Celebes Sea for 4 days. Found onlt 2 merchants, both friendly. Mission done, no new orders.. so its a free hunt.

Decide to stroll down the Western Coast of Borneo. By the time im turning the norther tip of borneo into the south china sea i get a task force report Far NW of me, moving SSW at 20kts. I Do a rough plot on what it hink their course might be and looks like i can catch it.. but will be close.

So i race at full speed for a day, and a few hours after reaching teh location & zigging around i get the TC stutters! Sweet!

Sonar check.. they're far out to my North. A sonar ping and their initial report from HQ gives me a rough idea of their final track. The seas are alittle rough, its daylight and theirs light fog. Approached from the front quarter at full speed with decks awash. As i start seeing them coming out of the mist i go to standard speed and turn in to what i think is a perpindicular track.

I see two Battleships.. weee!

No time for the Position Keeper on this one.. they're going to fast, and im not going to have the time.. they're approaching my front quarters already.

Quick check of my 90AOB lead chart matched against their speed of 20kts, and i get my lead angles (23.5 for fast fish, 33 slow). no messing with any dials. Just wait till they get to that angle.

im starting to see them really good through the fog so i go scope depth, looks like im in range for fast torpedoes.

fire 4 fish at a Kongo as he crosses 23.5 degrees, turn tail and fire 4 more fish at the second battleship, but he was too far along for my lead angle, so i had to "mark" a ways infront of him and use some gyro... definately a luck shot if it hits.

DD's are racing to the area, but im already heading away at full speed. No pings.

all 4 found their mark on the first battleship (with 1 dud). All the rear fish missed.

so im riding high, and finish out this patrol with a few lone merchants.


Second patrol out of Java was short (barely lived through it):

Im going through the Makasaar Straight (i belive thats the name). And i get sonar contact from the operator. Sounds like another task force. a Few pings and it looks like they're hauling butt. It's perfectly clear weather, and it looks like i might not even get into a good position, but i decide to try anyway just to get a look at them.

I plot a course, and when i finally spot them im not in a good firing position. But i see a pretty big fleet, with atleast 2 carriers (possibly a third).

I can't get reach a good firing spot, but im in range for slow torpodeos. But have no idea what their course is. I assumed they were going 20kts as well.

So i did a rough guess, and fired into them with a big spread hoping to hit something. Wound up with nothing but a crap load of escorts on me.

Before i could get down deep i got hit by a depth charge run at 40m that caused flooding in the engine and command room. pressure hulls damaged.

i zig and zag, and am now scared to go any deeper. finally my crew fixes the hulls. water in command room is pumped out. escorts still making runs at me. before i could get the water pumped out of the engine room i'm hit again. this time the compressor is taken out, the engine room hull is damaged again, and various other things.

rear of the ship starts to sag down, the batteries are damaged and i can only muster up 1kt at flank speed. Im fighting to keep her from sinking. she starts falling backwards so i blow the ballasts to keep from crushing. when i get back up past 30m i order persicope depth. i do this a few times and finally the pressure hulls are fixed and the flooding stops. comprssor fixed and i get most of the water pumped out, but another attack takes the pump offline and damges the pressure hull again in the engine room. take on some more water and start sagging again, but the leaks are stopped before it causes me to sink again.

The pumps are broke, the batteries are hosed and im stuck in a 45 degree angle with my nose sticking out of the water lol!! cant move.

all relies on the pumps being fixed so i can right myself and try to head for shallower waters off to my W.

Run after run on me they come. the forward hull takes some damage, but is repaired quickly.

so here i am waiting for the pumps to get fixed, and a miracle happens.

They stop attacking me and return to the group. Hours later the pump and various other things are fixed, and im able to bring the rear back up and limp home with no tonnage.

white knuckle.

i think what saved me is the nose sticking out of the water, figure they couldn't get a good run on me to seal the deal.. but they sure put some punishment on my sides.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by gutted

Success AND Failure.

YESSSSS! Welcome to the wonderful world of TMO. And congratulations on a couple of brilliantly delivered attacks. As you can see, brilliance is no guarantee of victory. You are not in 100% control of your destiny.