HMAS Sydney Inquiry Completed

iambecomelife · 08-12-09, 02:50 PM

http://www.theage.com.au/national/hm...0812-ehsd.html

70 years after the sinking, the Australian government has released a report that places much of the blame on the captain. According to the report he was informed of all merchant ship movements in the area and should have known that the Kormoran couldn't have been a Dutch freighter.

I really hate to "armchair quarterback" a brave man who lost his life, but the report seems correct to me. In hindsight the decision to come so close to an unknown ship may not have been the best one. It's interesting to contrast the Sydney's last battle with the fight b/w the "Devonshire" and "Atlantis". In that battle the British cruiser stayed outside the Germans' range, transmitted a challenge at a distance, and opened fire when the enemy ship got it wrong.

No offence intended to Australian subsim visitors, BTW - just my opinion.

TarJak · 08-12-09, 09:19 PM

I agree with the assessment IABL. I'm not sure whey you would choose to go near an unknown vessel in time of war. Unless you are certain of intent you would have to err on the side of caution and maintain whatever superiority you have. This was clearly not done in this case and the error costs many their lives.

Jimbuna · 08-13-09, 06:02 AM

Allow me to concur also.....nevertheless a terible tragic event was the resulting consequence.

rubenandthejets · 08-13-09, 08:46 AM

No offence taken-seems like the most comprehensive investigation to date has concluded what most people already knew-the HMAS Sydney got too close and was suprised and overwealmed in a matter of minutes.

It's always the captain's responsibility when the ship goes down but it might have been the XO or someone else on duty at the time.

bookworm_020 · 08-13-09, 09:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rubenandthejets

No offence taken-seems like the most comprehensive investigation to date has concluded what most people already knew-the HMAS Sydney got too close and was suprised and overwealmed in a matter of minutes.

It's always the captain's responsibility when the ship goes down but it might have been the XO or someone else on duty at the time.

Same here. The Germans got the better of the Sydney

sharkbit · 08-14-09, 08:18 AM

Link to official report if anyone is interested:

http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/F...ort/index.html

Looks like it might make for some interesting reading.

Jimbuna · 08-14-09, 08:30 AM

Thank you

sharkbit · 08-14-09, 09:05 AM

There's some great photos of the wreck in Volume 2, Ch. 12 with pretty extensive analysis of the damage. The clarity and detail of the photos are amazing.

Big document though-almost 14MB to download.

Jimbuna · 08-14-09, 03:39 PM

Archived....126MB (87MB zipped)

Sledgehammer427 · 08-14-09, 03:58 PM

iambecomelife · 08-15-09, 11:28 PM

I read somewhere that the men in the aft turrets behaved heroically during the battle. The entire ship was being destroyed around them, and at the last minute they managed to do just enough damage to make sure Kormoran sank. Tragically, they were of course never rewarded for their bravery. RIP.

bookworm_020 · 08-16-09, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iambecomelife

I read somewhere that the men in the aft turrets behaved heroically during the battle. The entire ship was being destroyed around them, and at the last minute they managed to do just enough damage to make sure Kormoran sank. Tragically, they were of course never rewarded for their bravery. RIP.

Correct, even the Germans acknowledged there bravery.

Thomen · 08-17-09, 01:28 PM

If someone is interested:
http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/exhibits.htm

Those are links to, what seems to be, the raw data that was used in the report. Some interesting stuff and many historical documents are accesible.

Jimbuna · 08-17-09, 04:30 PM

A veritable treasure trove

Dan D · 08-17-09, 05:18 PM

I very much enjoyed the "Letter from the German Military Archives of 2/3/2009" (Exhibit number 249) to the Commission of Inquiry where a Dr. Menzel, Director of the Archives, gives his "assessment of a [certain] allegedly official document by the German Navy" cited in the book "The lost souls and ghosts of HMAS Sydney II 1941, dated 21 November 1941.
http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/E...005.0347_E.pdf

Quote: "In average every second word of the thirteen lines of text -on top of everything written with a type writer font not used at that time- is misspelled. In part, English words are used. Clerks and official writers no matter of whichever administration [and] in whatever country, however, normally are proficient in the official language. There can be not mention of a command of the German language here though. The grammar is downright ludicrous!"

"--an absolutely amateurish and altogether very clumsy forgery!--"

LOL!
To have command of the German language and grammar can be useful at times, at least, if you want to fake offical Navy documents.
Go back to school!

08-12-09, 02:50 PM	#1
iambecomelife Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,706 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	HMAS Sydney Inquiry Completed http://www.theage.com.au/national/hm...0812-ehsd.html 70 years after the sinking, the Australian government has released a report that places much of the blame on the captain. According to the report he was informed of all merchant ship movements in the area and should have known that the Kormoran couldn't have been a Dutch freighter. I really hate to "armchair quarterback" a brave man who lost his life, but the report seems correct to me. In hindsight the decision to come so close to an unknown ship may not have been the best one. It's interesting to contrast the Sydney's last battle with the fight b/w the "Devonshire" and "Atlantis". In that battle the British cruiser stayed outside the Germans' range, transmitted a challenge at a distance, and opened fire when the enemy ship got it wrong. No offence intended to Australian subsim visitors, BTW - just my opinion. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/WolvesoftheKaiser/

08-13-09, 06:02 AM	#3
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Allow me to concur also.....nevertheless a terible tragic event was the resulting consequence. __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-13-09, 08:46 AM	#4
rubenandthejets 中国水兵 Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 279 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	No offence taken-seems like the most comprehensive investigation to date has concluded what most people already knew-the HMAS Sydney got too close and was suprised and overwealmed in a matter of minutes. It's always the captain's responsibility when the ship goes down but it might have been the XO or someone else on duty at the time. __________________ HMAS Sydney III "Thorough and Ready"

08-14-09, 08:18 AM	#6
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	Link to official report if anyone is interested: http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/F...ort/index.html Looks like it might make for some interesting reading. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

08-14-09, 08:30 AM	#7
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Thank you __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-12-09, 09:19 PM	#2
TarJak Fleet Admiral Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 17,052 Downloads: 150 Uploads: 8	I agree with the assessment IABL. I'm not sure whey you would choose to go near an unknown vessel in time of war. Unless you are certain of intent you would have to err on the side of caution and maintain whatever superiority you have. This was clearly not done in this case and the error costs many their lives.

08-14-09, 09:05 AM	#8
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	There's some great photos of the wreck in Volume 2, Ch. 12 with pretty extensive analysis of the damage. The clarity and detail of the photos are amazing. Big document though-almost 14MB to download. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

08-14-09, 03:39 PM	#9
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	Archived....126MB (87MB zipped) __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-14-09, 03:58 PM	#10
Sledgehammer427 PacWagon Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Drinking coffee and staring at trees in Massachusetts Posts: 2,908 Downloads: 287 Uploads: 0	__________________ Cold Waters Voice Crew - Fire Control Officer Cmdr O. Myers - C/O USS Nautilus (SS-168) 114,000 tons sunk - 4 Spec Ops completed V-boat Nutcase - Need supplies? Japanese garrison on a small island in the way? Just give us a call! D4C!

08-15-09, 11:28 PM	#11
iambecomelife Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 4,706 Downloads: 300 Uploads: 0	I read somewhere that the men in the aft turrets behaved heroically during the battle. The entire ship was being destroyed around them, and at the last minute they managed to do just enough damage to make sure Kormoran sank. Tragically, they were of course never rewarded for their bravery. RIP. __________________ https://www.facebook.com/WolvesoftheKaiser/

08-17-09, 01:28 PM	#13
Thomen Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: West Virginia Posts: 1,207 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	If someone is interested: http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/exhibits.htm Those are links to, what seems to be, the raw data that was used in the report. Some interesting stuff and many historical documents are accesible.

08-17-09, 04:30 PM	#14
Jimbuna Chief of the Boat Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: 250 metres below the surface Posts: 190,584 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 13	A veritable treasure trove __________________ Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. Oh my God, not again!!

08-17-09, 05:18 PM	#15
Dan D Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: 9th Flotilla Posts: 839 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I very much enjoyed the "Letter from the German Military Archives of 2/3/2009" (Exhibit number 249) to the Commission of Inquiry where a Dr. Menzel, Director of the Archives, gives his "assessment of a [certain] allegedly official document by the German Navy" cited in the book "The lost souls and ghosts of HMAS Sydney II 1941, dated 21 November 1941. http://www.defence.gov.au/sydneyii/E...005.0347_E.pdf Quote: "In average every second word of the thirteen lines of text -on top of everything written with a type writer font not used at that time- is misspelled. In part, English words are used. Clerks and official writers no matter of whichever administration [and] in whatever country, however, normally are proficient in the official language. There can be not mention of a command of the German language here though. The grammar is downright ludicrous!" "--an absolutely amateurish and altogether very clumsy forgery!--" LOL! To have command of the German language and grammar can be useful at times, at least, if you want to fake offical Navy documents. Go back to school! __________________