Train Crash in Washington

bookworm_020 · 06-23-09, 02:08 AM

I surprised that this hasn't been posted earlier. 6 confirmed dead, with that to rise

http://www.smh.com.au/world/two-subw...0623-cubj.html

06-23-09, 02:21 AM

At least nine dead now.

AVGWarhawk · 06-23-09, 08:28 AM

I heard about this on the way to work this morning. I will be hearing a lot more as this accident occured about 30 miles from my house.

Schroeder · 06-23-09, 09:13 AM

Damn it.

SteamWake · 06-23-09, 09:46 AM

It seems that one of the trrains involved was an 'older' model and dident have recorders installed.

Also the system was supposed to be running in automated mode. Looks like the ABS failed (Automatic Braking System) if that 'older' model even had that system installed.

Max2147 · 06-23-09, 10:22 AM

Official death toll is now 7.

I'm pretty sure I was actually riding Metro when it happened. I rode the Red Line yesterday morning (albiet in a completely different part of town), but I decided to take Blue/Orange home. When I was walking out of the station I heard announcements about all sorts of stuff happening on the Red Line.

From the reports here in DC it sounds like the train was under automated control at the time. The only thing the driver does is close the doors at the station.

Both trains stopped in the middle of the track, with the following train well behind. This is fairly normal on the Metro system. But then for some reason, the following train started moving again while the leading train was still stopped.

At that point the driver could have prevented the accident by applying the emergency brakes. There was a similar incident a couple of years ago where two drivers prevented a collision by applying the emergency brakes after the automated control system failed. That was a huge relief, since it happened in a tunnel under the Potomac River.

In this case, the driver clearly failed to apply the brakes until it was too late or failed to apply them completely. That means that the driver was suicidal, incapacitated, distracted, or for some reason failed to see the train ahead.

Looking at this photo, the latter might be possible, even though the accident happened above ground on a clear day: http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-d...9062202697.jpg

Due to the curve, the bridge, the shadows caused by the bridge, and the chain link fence, the stationary leading train might not have been visible to the driver of the following train until it was too late.

It's also possible that the driver simply "zoned out" because she didn't have anything to do while the train was under manual control. In that state she might not have seen the train in front or reacted as quickly as she would have if she had been paying attention.

As far as the train model, I'm not sure if there's a major difference in safety features. I know Metro regularly refurbishes their old cars to bring them up to newer standards. However, the earliest trains (including the following train in yesterday's accident) have shown a tendency to "telescope" in accidents, with the body shell separating from the chassis. It looks like that happened yesterday too, which probably made the number of fatalities higher.

Oberon · 06-23-09, 10:24 AM

Terrible accident, reminds me a little of Clapham Junction, that was faulty signalling.

Terrible stuff.

SteamWake · 06-23-09, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max2147

In this case, the driver clearly failed to apply the brakes until it was too late or failed to apply them completely. That means that the driver was suicidal, incapacitated, distracted, or for some reason failed to see the train ahead..

Distracted... Id put money on it. Ill be a cell phone / blackberry was involved.

Which brings up a question I wanted to ask. I know the system is 'automated' but are there not signals or warning buzzers installed?

Jimbuna · 06-23-09, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oberon

Terrible accident, reminds me a little of Clapham Junction, that was faulty signalling.

Terrible stuff.

That's what I was thinking

SteamWake · 06-23-09, 03:32 PM

Dont deny Steamwakes Instincts :rotfl:

Quote:

National Transportation Safety Board member Debbie Hersman said all "perishable data" has been collected in the first phase of the investigation and that the agency will now begin looking at such documents as cell-phone records, which includes accounts of text messages.
She said the agency has recently investigated two crashed in which a train operator was distracted when using a portable communication device -- including a May 8 incident in Boston in which 20 trolly passengers were injured.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...using-sensors/

Max2147 · 06-23-09, 04:48 PM

It's pretty clear that there were two separate failures. First, the automation failure that caused the train to stop moving, and the human failure that prevented it from stopping.

Unfortunately, most of the public scrutiny will be focused on the latter, even though the former is probably more serious.

bookworm_020 · 06-24-09, 02:23 AM

All the trains here in Sydney have dataloggers (black boxes) to record all speeds and actions of the drivers. The trains aren't automated, as the driver has full control at all times (well that is the theory!).

Signallers can hold a train at a red light or call them through to the next signal. But there is always one signal between trains. If you pass a signal at stop, two things happen, an alarm goes off at train headquarters, and the train's brakes get tripped and apply automaticly. If you don't have authority to pass the signal, the driver can expect to be hauled over the coals and even fired.

There has been multiply failures in this accident. To just blame the driver is a poor man's way of hidding the truth. After a couple of bad crashes here in Sydney alot of leasons were learned, but some of them were slow to be acted upon, which caused futher problems.

I feel sorry for the family of the driver who died, and the one who lived. I'm a trainee driver here in Sydney and can only guess how they would be feeling.

SteamWake · 06-24-09, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

All the trains here in Sydney have dataloggers (black boxes) to record all speeds and actions of the drivers. The trains aren't automated, as the driver has full control at all times (well that is the theory!).

Signallers can hold a train at a red light or call them through to the next signal. But there is always one signal between trains. If you pass a signal at stop, two things happen, an alarm goes off at train headquarters, and the train's brakes get tripped and apply automaticly. If you don't have authority to pass the signal, the driver can expect to be hauled over the coals and even fired.

There has been multiply failures in this accident. To just blame the driver is a poor man's way of hidding the truth. After a couple of bad crashes here in Sydney alot of leasons were learned, but some of them were slow to be acted upon, which caused futher problems.

I feel sorry for the family of the driver who died, and the one who lived. I'm a trainee driver here in Sydney and can only guess how they would be feeling.

These trains are supposed to have all that except that one of these were 'older' models and did not have the data loggers installed. For whatever reason the ABS failed.

Max2147 · 06-24-09, 09:07 AM

The driver on the Red Line train engaged the emergency brakes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062300653.html

The NTSB said there was evidence on the tracks that the brakes had indeed been used, so it looks like it was just too late. Given the issues I mentioned before that would have obstructed the driver's vision (curve, bridge, shadows, chain link fence), it's not really surprising.

A lot of Metro's dirty laundry is also coming out for everybody to see. The NTSB has been on Metro's case a lot over safety issues, but Metro doesn't have a dedicated funding source, so they don't have the money to implement changes.

SteamWake · 06-24-09, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Max2147

The driver on the Red Line train engaged the emergency brakes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062300653.html

The NTSB said there was evidence on the tracks that the brakes had indeed been used, so it looks like it was just too late. Given the issues I mentioned before that would have obstructed the driver's vision (curve, bridge, shadows, chain link fence), it's not really surprising.

A lot of Metro's dirty laundry is also coming out for everybody to see. The NTSB has been on Metro's case a lot over safety issues, but Metro doesn't have a dedicated funding source, so they don't have the money to implement changes.

Again are there no signals either trackside or in cab? In a train if you have to wait till you 'see' an obsticle its already too late.

06-23-09, 02:08 AM	#1
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Train Crash in Washington I surprised that this hasn't been posted earlier. 6 confirmed dead, with that to rise http://www.smh.com.au/world/two-subw...0623-cubj.html __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

06-23-09, 08:28 AM	#3
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,277 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I heard about this on the way to work this morning. I will be hearing a lot more as this accident occured about 30 miles from my house. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

06-23-09, 09:13 AM	#4
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Damn it. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

06-23-09, 09:46 AM	#5
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	It seems that one of the trrains involved was an 'older' model and dident have recorders installed. Also the system was supposed to be running in automated mode. Looks like the ABS failed (Automatic Braking System) if that 'older' model even had that system installed. __________________ Follow the progress of Mr. Mulligan : http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=147648

06-24-09, 02:23 AM	#12
bookworm_020 Navy Seal Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Sinking ships off the Australian coast Posts: 5,966 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	All the trains here in Sydney have dataloggers (black boxes) to record all speeds and actions of the drivers. The trains aren't automated, as the driver has full control at all times (well that is the theory!). Signallers can hold a train at a red light or call them through to the next signal. But there is always one signal between trains. If you pass a signal at stop, two things happen, an alarm goes off at train headquarters, and the train's brakes get tripped and apply automaticly. If you don't have authority to pass the signal, the driver can expect to be hauled over the coals and even fired. There has been multiply failures in this accident. To just blame the driver is a poor man's way of hidding the truth. After a couple of bad crashes here in Sydney alot of leasons were learned, but some of them were slow to be acted upon, which caused futher problems. I feel sorry for the family of the driver who died, and the one who lived. I'm a trainee driver here in Sydney and can only guess how they would be feeling. __________________ "There is always one person in any organization who knows whats going on, That person must be fired"

06-23-09, 02:21 AM	#2
OneToughHerring Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	At least nine dead now.

06-23-09, 10:22 AM	#6
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Official death toll is now 7. I'm pretty sure I was actually riding Metro when it happened. I rode the Red Line yesterday morning (albiet in a completely different part of town), but I decided to take Blue/Orange home. When I was walking out of the station I heard announcements about all sorts of stuff happening on the Red Line. From the reports here in DC it sounds like the train was under automated control at the time. The only thing the driver does is close the doors at the station. Both trains stopped in the middle of the track, with the following train well behind. This is fairly normal on the Metro system. But then for some reason, the following train started moving again while the leading train was still stopped. At that point the driver could have prevented the accident by applying the emergency brakes. There was a similar incident a couple of years ago where two drivers prevented a collision by applying the emergency brakes after the automated control system failed. That was a huge relief, since it happened in a tunnel under the Potomac River. In this case, the driver clearly failed to apply the brakes until it was too late or failed to apply them completely. That means that the driver was suicidal, incapacitated, distracted, or for some reason failed to see the train ahead. Looking at this photo, the latter might be possible, even though the accident happened above ground on a clear day: http://media.washingtonpost.com/wp-d...9062202697.jpg Due to the curve, the bridge, the shadows caused by the bridge, and the chain link fence, the stationary leading train might not have been visible to the driver of the following train until it was too late. It's also possible that the driver simply "zoned out" because she didn't have anything to do while the train was under manual control. In that state she might not have seen the train in front or reacted as quickly as she would have if she had been paying attention. As far as the train model, I'm not sure if there's a major difference in safety features. I know Metro regularly refurbishes their old cars to bring them up to newer standards. However, the earliest trains (including the following train in yesterday's accident) have shown a tendency to "telescope" in accidents, with the body shell separating from the chassis. It looks like that happened yesterday too, which probably made the number of fatalities higher.

06-23-09, 10:24 AM	#7
Oberon Lucky Jack Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 25,976 Downloads: 61 Uploads: 20	Terrible accident, reminds me a little of Clapham Junction, that was faulty signalling. Terrible stuff.

06-23-09, 04:48 PM	#11
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	It's pretty clear that there were two separate failures. First, the automation failure that caused the train to stop moving, and the human failure that prevented it from stopping. Unfortunately, most of the public scrutiny will be focused on the latter, even though the former is probably more serious.

06-24-09, 09:07 AM	#14
Max2147 Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 714 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	The driver on the Red Line train engaged the emergency brakes: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...062300653.html The NTSB said there was evidence on the tracks that the brakes had indeed been used, so it looks like it was just too late. Given the issues I mentioned before that would have obstructed the driver's vision (curve, bridge, shadows, chain link fence), it's not really surprising. A lot of Metro's dirty laundry is also coming out for everybody to see. The NTSB has been on Metro's case a lot over safety issues, but Metro doesn't have a dedicated funding source, so they don't have the money to implement changes.