Alternative to Dangerous Water?

[jrivett]

Hello, I've been playing DW for a while now and while I see from the forums that you hardcore sim types really like it, I'm afraid it's not what I'm looking for.

Here's what I want: Dangerous Waters, but with autocrew sonarmen that can actually do their jobs. I started doing a bit of research here and on other foums when I ran into problems with the DW sonar autocrew and what people seem to be saying is a) why would you want to use sonar autocrew when it's so much fun to do yourself; b) you're not really looking for an accurate sim if you're using autocrews; and the surprising c) a human player manning the sonar stations is always going to do a better job than the autocrew.

My responses to these comments are: a) sure it can be fun but I still don't want to be forced to do it; b) I want as much accuracy and realism as possible without actually having to man the individual stations (in other words, I want to run the sim as the CAPTAIN); and c) then the sim is broken, since a civilian sitting in his basement running a sim on his computer is never going to be as good at the job as a real life sonarman, no matter what he might think.

You should know that I have read all the relevant sections of the manual and done the tutorials. I know how best to help the sonar autocrew do their job. But it's never enough. They report contacts but never seem to classify or identify them.

Taking all that into consideration, is there a sim out there that's as realistic as Dangerous Waters but with autocrews (particularly the sonar autocrew) that are at least competent?

[FIREWALL]

Hi and Welcome Aboard.

Since I have the 3 major players in the Nuke boat scene I may be able to help and do it cheaply.

Btw the one that give you a hard time about how YOU want to play YOUR game usually don"t have the game.

Also the members that really know their way around these Nukes I've found to be very helpful.

I'm more of a 688i or SC fan myself and don't play DW for the reasons you mention.

These are on ebay for cheap. Includeing manuals if you take your time .

[jrivett]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Since I have the 3 major players in the Nuke boat scene

Sorry, not sure I understand. What do you mean when you say you have the three major players?

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I may be able to help and do it cheaply.

Sounds good. But... cheaply? As opposed to expensive?

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

Also the members that really know their way around these Nukes I've found to be very helpful.

That's encouraging.

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I'm more of a 688i or SC fan myself and don't play DW for the reasons you mention.

It's good to hear you say that. I was starting to think I was missing something.

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

These are on ebay for cheap. Includeing manuals if you take your time .

I have 688i and I'm working my way through it. The sonarmen are capable, which is nice. The in-game manual includes a cavitation graph, which DW seems to be missing. But of course the graphics are outdated, etc. I'll be grabbing Sub Command when it becomes available on Gametap - hopefully soon. I've heard good things about it.

[Blacklight]

Why not get the Naval Combat Pack ? It's worth it for the money. And you get three fully patched games with it. When you get Sub Command. Make sure to get SCU/SCX for it. That addon adds so much to the game. I enjoy Dangerous Waters more than Sub Command, but both are really good.

I like to do my own sonar reading. That's 90% of the fun of a naval sub sim.

[Frame57]

I am with you Bro. I have found the auto crews to be pitiful. I play both games and enjoy them. But to be a Sonar tech just is not what I want to do. I took the seawolf out for a spin and my crew cannot pick up a soviet sub moving at 7 knots at 7000 yards! Our crew (a real one on the Archerfish) could pick this up realistically 1t 15K yards or more depending on SNR. I also find the torpedoes (MK-48's) screw up more often than not. It's like they designed the game to screw up. Now for the other side of the coin. I decide to drive a Sierra class (SC with SCX installed) Hey! All of a sudden I have a boat that can actually detect contacts up to 30k yards and they classify them correctly. So there are some real mod issues here with regards to reality. The Seawolf can do much better accoustically than what these games offer. For now I am stuck driving this Sierra because at least it behaves like a real submarine and the Torpedoes seem to do their job much better as well. Just a tip though. Do not use the fire control auto crew. They must be mentally handicapped because they never seem to be able to preset a weapon properly. Good luck!

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by Blacklight

Why not get the Naval Combat Pack ? It's worth it for the money. And you get three fully patched games with it. When you get Sub Command. Make sure to get SCU/SCX for it. That addon adds so much to the game. I enjoy Dangerous Waters more than Sub Command, but both are really good.

I like to do my own sonar reading. That's 90% of the fun of a naval sub sim.

I was hopeing you'de show up Blacklight. I went the route you recommended for Sub Command to get SCU/SCX .

[Blacklight]

Sub Command is like an entirely different game with that mod.

I can't wait for the SCX database to get worked over to Dangerous Waters in the next LWAMI too.

Hopefully it will be done sometime in the near future, but I of course don't want to super rush these guys who are working on it endless hours on their spare time. I'm willing to wait. It's going to be a really nice addition.

[jrivett]

Thanks for the tips! I was hoping that Sub Command was going to be a good one and from what you're saying it sound like it will be. I was planning on getting it through Gametap, but if I do that, I won't be able to add any of the mods you suggested. So, most likely I'll buy the Naval Combat Pack.

Looking forward to playing SC with SCU/SCX.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by FIREWALL

I'm more of a 688i or SC fan myself and don't play DW for the reasons you mention.

.

I've just read this thread by accident. Does that mean that the SC has better Sonar AutoCrew compared to DW?
If I am not wrong, the capability of the Sonar AutoCrew was enhanced by LWAMI?

[FIREWALL]

Updated post : I now have all three. I am in no way an expert on these sims.

Even being a noob is stretching it.


I think I can safely say all 3 are difficult as compared to SH series.

But imho that's what makes for a good sim.

Patience and Practice will prevail.

We have alot of talent on SubSim to help us noobs.

We are not alone.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

If I am not wrong, the capability of the Sonar AutoCrew was enhanced by LWAMI?

LWAMI is a database and doctrine mod. It does not change other parts of the sim, such as the .dlls and .exe. The database lets us change platform attributes, and doctrines control some behavior of AI objects. Autocrew doesn't fall into either category.

[Frame57]

Whos knows? I have given up on these sims for other reasons than just the sonar issue. Seriously, how does my clunker of a diesel boat pick up sonar contacts 10 miles out almost constantly and classifies the distinction between a merchant and warship, they give the bearing, speed and whether or not the contact is closing or moving away. But NOOOOO, my Seawolf autocrew cannot do what a WW2 boat can do? In 1981 in the Med. My boat was awarded the "hook em" award. This was a naval award for given to the Archerfish for tracking an early Kilo class boat for weeks. Yep! The ultra quiet Kilo that everyone balks about was no match acoustically for a 637 class submarine. I know that we cannot have actual classified material divulged, but IMO DW and SC are not even in the ball park. Funny enough I think the old 688i sim is more accurate as far as sonar capabilities are concerned.

[FIREWALL]

Originally Posted by Frame57

Whos knows? I have given up on these sims for other reasons than just the sonar issue. Seriously, how does my clunker of a diesel boat pick up sonar contacts 10 miles out almost constantly and classifies the distinction between a merchant and warship, they give the bearing, speed and whether or not the contact is closing or moving away. But NOOOOO, my Seawolf autocrew cannot do what a WW2 boat can do? In 1981 in the Med. My boat was awarded the "hook em" award. This was a naval award for given to the Archerfish for tracking an early Kilo class boat for weeks. Yep! The ultra quiet Kilo that everyone balks about was no match acoustically for a 637 class submarine. I know that we cannot have actual classified material divulged, but IMO DW and SC are not even in the ball park. Funny enough I think the old 688i sim is more accurate as far as sonar capabilities are concerned.

I think you hit the nail on the head Frame57 about classified stuff.

I would imagine they can't give it all away.

My guess it's a game version of a training tool.

As XXX said " It's all we got "

[Molon Labe]

I think there is a problem of expectations here, which SCS is in part guilty of creating. SCS sims could fairly be described as "sensor sims." They simulate the function of ship stations--in fact most non-commercial sims made by SCS focus exclusively on individual stations and are used for training purposes.

It appears that many people who have come here from the Silent Hunter community are used to a very different kind of sim, where the focus isn't individual stations, but on the experience of command. These players are looking for a role-playing experience of being the skipper and would rather not concern themselves with playing the roles of the subordinate crew. The problem is, that's not what SCS sims are designed to be.

Autocrew is present for workload management and not much more. It lets you concentrate on some sensors while doing a good-enough job on the others so that you don't get completely overwhelmed. SCS also talks about autocrew as providing scalability, meaning they intended to allow players to cut certain functions out, restricting the scale of the player's experience to certain aspects. This was an irresponsible statement on their part, because they never put in the effort to make autocrew function in this way. Maybe there was a disconnect between the developers and the marketers on that. But the bottom line is that the products of the autocrew were NEVER meant to be a simulation of anything, so critiquing the fidelity of the simulation based on those products is unfair.

[Frame57]

From what I have gathered a Sub Commander actually worked with Sonalysts when they came out with 688i. Sonalysts made training SW for the Navy. I think the later sims were required to be scaled back for obvious reasons. This gives me an idea. Most of the WW2 patrol logs were declassified in 1972. So I will read some more of them to see if the sonar contacts are remotely close to what I get in SH4. Just to see if they were really that good or not.