Using Radar to Search for Submarines

[SeaQueen]

I've been playing with the P-3 lately. I created a scenario where I was the pouncer for 3 CVOAs located in the Philippine Sea, and I had to make sure a CVN didn't get sunk. Interestingly, my most effective search sensor wasn't the sonobuoys at all. I used them mostly for prosecution. It was the radar!

Up at 2000ft, the radar horizon is pretty long so I could search large portions of the ocean relatively quickly. When I saw a radar contact vanish from my screen, I knew it was a submarine submerging. I'd fly to the last location and just drop a torpedo on the MAD hit. I'd get 'em every time.

[Molon Labe]

A little surprising. I know there's a hardcode that makes D-E subs run their diesels on occasion, but I think they usually do it snorkeling. Did you set up the mission to force them to surface on some interval?

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

A little surprising. I know there's a hardcode that makes D-E subs run their diesels on occasion, but I think they usually do it snorkeling. Did you set up the mission to force them to surface on some interval?

I know, that's why I posted it! :-)

I just let the AI do it's thing. There was no coding at all in it. Something I've noticed, and this goes back to my usual axe to grind, is that people don't make missions with the correct distance and time scales in mind. Out of 24 submarines in the whole scenario, I only saw 2 pop up in 3 hours. Part of that was due to the limitations of my radar horizon at 2000ft too. There might have been more and I just didn't see them.

None the less, if you throw enough submarines in there, eventually, you'll see them surface. Another thing I've noticed is that submarines at periscope depth will go deep when a helo goes near them. I guess they're trying to avoid the MAD. There's actually a lot of interesting behaviors built into the stock AI, but they're realistic ones, which means that yeah, the submarines won't pop up a whole lot, but they do pop up.

[LoBlo]

Care to share the scenarios? I played your RIMPAC scenario. It was challenging. You should make more and share them.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Care to share the scenarios? I played your RIMPAC scenario. It was challenging. You should make more and share them.

I'm glad you liked RIMPAC. NATO EXWAR exercise is pretty similar but with an ESG instead of a CSG. I sent in a scenario called NATO ISR exercise to Bill Nichols but it seems to have vanished into the void. He doesn't seem to be updating his site like he used to be. I guess with the Democrats in power he has things to do again.

The mission I'm playing with now is still in the works, but it is definitely promising as one to send in. I actually want to make a campaign some time. I just can't figure out how to make that part of the scenario editor work.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I know, that's why I posted it! :-)

I just let the AI do it's thing. There was no coding at all in it. Something I've noticed, and this goes back to my usual axe to grind, is that people don't make missions with the correct distance and time scales in mind. Out of 24 submarines in the whole scenario, I only saw 2 pop up in 3 hours. Part of that was due to the limitations of my radar horizon at 2000ft too. There might have been more and I just didn't see them.

None the less, if you throw enough submarines in there, eventually, you'll see them surface. Another thing I've noticed is that submarines at periscope depth will go deep when a helo goes near them. I guess they're trying to avoid the MAD. There's actually a lot of interesting behaviors built into the stock AI, but they're realistic ones, which means that yeah, the submarines won't pop up a whole lot, but they do pop up.

I can assure you, helos going deep with air contacts in the vicinity is not hardcoded, but controlled by doctrine.

EDIT: it turns out I'm wrong about the snorkeling; that is also doctrine.

I'm glad you liked RIMPAC. NATO EXWAR exercise is pretty similar but with an ESG instead of a CSG. I sent in a scenario called NATO ISR exercise to Bill Nichols but it seems to have vanished into the void. He doesn't seem to be updating his site like he used to be. I guess with the Democrats in power he has things to do again.

Well at least I know he's not just pissed at me.

[LoBlo]

Maybe a a PM to him would be in order to check that everything is cool?

Of course... subguru.com is the only repository for DW scenarios... if the site ever went down all the scenarios would be lost... hmm..

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

Of course... subguru.com is the only repository for DW scenarios... if the site ever went down all the scenarios would be lost... hmm..

That's not true. Now there's CADC too. I just put NATO ISR exercise up on that one. Hopefully someone enjoys it. It's a little bit different from the usual scenario.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

That's not true. Now there's CADC too. I just put NATO ISR exercise up on that one. Hopefully someone enjoys it. It's a little bit different from the usual scenario.

Gave it my first runthrough today and you'll be happy to know I flunked. Question, did you design this with LWAMI in mind? Because normally you seem to prefer stock DW, but the placement of some of the stuff in here seems like it was meant to take advantage of a certain LWAMI feature. I'd say more but I don't want to throw a spoiler out. But if it was intended, it's very devious.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Gave it my first runthrough today and you'll be happy to know I flunked. Question, did you design this with LWAMI in mind? Because normally you seem to prefer stock DW, but the placement of some of the stuff in here seems like it was meant to take advantage of a certain LWAMI feature. I'd say more but I don't want to throw a spoiler out. But if it was intended, it's very devious.

Oh good! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I designed it with stock in mind, but there's no reason why you couldn't play it with LWAMI that I can think of. If you can make it past the surface ships undetected and take a picture of those bunkers, you're all good. There's nothing database dependant about all that. If I remember correctly, I designed the anti-submarine barriers to a 0.9 effectiveness, so just by random chance you should win about 10% of the time.

There isn't really anything devious about it. The surface ships behave pretty brainlessly. It's tough because you've got to quickly make decisions in the face of great uncertainty, which is the real challenge of being a submarine officer. You never really know how far away the surface ships are exactly, so how do you evade them? They come up awfully quick. If you're smart you can make some good guesses but even then it's not easy.

[LoBlo]

A 10% probability of survival? Now that's just plain wrong...

*goes off to try the mission*

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

A 10% probability of survival? Now that's just plain wrong...

*goes off to try the mission*

It's not a 10% probability of survival. It's a 10% probability of remaining undetected assuming you're behaving randomly in the sense that you start off at a random position and then drive in a straight line. You all are pretty smart people so I'd HOPE you all put a little more thought into things than that. It's also important to notice that in DW detection is not the same as classification. Just because the AI has determined there's a submarine there doesn't mean they've determined there's a hostile submarine there.

If I was writing a subsim, I'd want to have some control over the classification criteria as a scenario designer. In one scenario, detection might be classification, in another it might be something else. I've noticed that the AI is very slow to call something a hostile sub, and giving the scenario designer some control over that might help.

But anyhow, if you can remain undetected you'll probably do pretty well because the minefields aren't terribly effective against submarines.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

I'm glad you liked RIMPAC. NATO EXWAR exercise is pretty similar but with an ESG instead of a CSG. I sent in a scenario called NATO ISR exercise to Bill Nichols but it seems to have vanished into the void. He doesn't seem to be updating his site like he used to be. I guess with the Democrats in power he has things to do again.

The mission I'm playing with now is still in the works, but it is definitely promising as one to send in. I actually want to make a campaign some time. I just can't figure out how to make that part of the scenario editor work.

Just played ISR and liked it although it was a little long, returning to the ESG area there wasn't much to see (no shipping or biologics).

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by SeaQueen

Oh good! I'm glad you enjoyed it. I designed it with stock in mind, but there's no reason why you couldn't play it with LWAMI that I can think of. If you can make it past the surface ships undetected and take a picture of those bunkers, you're all good. There's nothing database dependant about all that. If I remember correctly, I designed the anti-submarine barriers to a 0.9 effectiveness, so just by random chance you should win about 10% of the time.

There isn't really anything devious about it. The surface ships behave pretty brainlessly. It's tough because you've got to quickly make decisions in the face of great uncertainty, which is the real challenge of being a submarine officer. You never really know how far away the surface ships are exactly, so how do you evade them? They come up awfully quick. If you're smart you can make some good guesses but even then it's not easy.

Try it with LWAMI installed and you'll see why I said it was devious. One of the DB objects is not the same as what it used to be.

edit: ah hell, if you designed it for stock I don't have to worry about spoilers. The minefields are CAPTORS, and they're positioned such that they're likely to catch the sub when he has to put on a little bit of speed to traverse the Krivak route.

[SeaQueen]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Just played ISR and liked it although it was a little long, returning to the ESG area there wasn't much to see (no shipping or biologics).

That's fair. I've come to the conclusion that really, to do a realistically scaled mission, it's probably going to be kinda long. My own experience with warships is that, frankly, a lot of time at sea is spent sailing around looking at nothing.