U-864 is finally being raised!

_Seth_ · 01-29-09, 12:35 PM

Today, the Norwegian government decided to raise the U-864 (Sank after being torpedoed outside Fedje during WWII) , due to the possible environmental damage all the mercury onboard could cause

Link to norwegian newspaper: http://www.bt.no/lokalt/hordaland/article782736.ece

Letum · 01-29-09, 12:42 PM

It's a shame they have to disturb a grave, but mercury really is nasty stuff.

_Seth_ · 01-29-09, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

It's a shame they have to disturb a grave, but mercury really is nasty stuff.

I truly agree, mate. I hope the do this with the proper respect since it is the last resting place of the crew.

SteamWake · 01-29-09, 01:07 PM

The link dident help me since I cant read that but I'm wondering...

Where did all this mercury come from? How much is there?

Isnt there a possibility of doing more damage by trying to raise her as opposed to letting her lie?

FIREWALL · 01-29-09, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

The link dident help me since I cant read that but I'm wondering...

Where did all this mercury come from? How much is there?

Isnt there a possibility of doing more damage by trying to raise her as opposed to letting her lie?

SW makes a very good point.

@ SETH Thx for article.

AVGWarhawk · 01-29-09, 01:14 PM

There was thoughts of making a huge dome to cover the entire boat. I would think this is best. Do not disturb the final resting place and possibility of spilling the mercury would be non-existant.

SteamWake · 01-29-09, 01:25 PM

But how much mercury are we talking about?

Is it barrels full? Or just in the switches / batterys etc.

Seems to me if its just a few tilt switches and such yea best thing to do would be to leave it alone.

But if its like 20 or more gallons then there is a cause for concearn.

On an interesting footnote ... Did you know that the alchemial make up of sea water is virtually the same throughout the globe? A seawater sample taken in the gulf stream will have the same amount of gold, lead, mercury, arsinic, etc. as a sample taken in the bearing straights.

Thomen · 01-29-09, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

But how much mercury are we talking about?

Is it barrels full? Or just in the switches / batterys etc.

Seems to me if its just a few tilt switches and such yea best thing to do would be to leave it alone.

But if its like 20 or more gallons then there is a cause for concearn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-864

GoldenRivet · 01-29-09, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by _Seth_

Quote:

Originally Posted by Letum

It's a shame they have to disturb a grave, but mercury really is nasty stuff.

I truly agree, mate. I hope the do this with the proper respect since it is the last resting place of the crew.

The German navy should have a full military honor guard present who will all salute arms when the boat breaks the surface.

SteamWake · 01-29-09, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomen

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

But how much mercury are we talking about?

Is it barrels full? Or just in the switches / batterys etc.

Seems to me if its just a few tilt switches and such yea best thing to do would be to leave it alone.

But if its like 20 or more gallons then there is a cause for concearn.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-864

67 Tons worth... yea thats cause for concearn.

AVGWarhawk · 01-29-09, 01:49 PM

I'd say

FIREWALL · 01-29-09, 02:31 PM

How deep is the sub ? If divers can reach it and work under those depths a high vacuum hose could suck the mercury out and leave sub and crew alone.

There must be a better way than raising it.

limkol · 01-29-09, 04:26 PM

Just read that the boat went down with a crew of 73 according to Danish TV2's website. She was on her way to Japan with a cargo of 67 tons of mercury for weapons production and the drawings for a new Messerschmitt fighter Me 262. She was sunk by a torpedo from the British submarine 'Venturer' the 9th. of February 1945.
Today she lies 150 metres below the surface only 2 nautical miles from the island of Fedje off Norways west coast. The boat is broken in 2 pieces and is leaking several kilos of mercury per year.

SteamWake · 01-29-09, 05:19 PM

What in the hell do you need 67 tons of mecury for munitions?

Thats a hella lot of tilt switches or was it used for other things?

Dan D · 01-29-09, 05:47 PM

An interesting question here is::
who in fact will pay for the salvage costs and for the costs resulting from possible damage to the maritime environment?

There was a similar case with U 859:

"On 23 September U-859 was running on the surface, within 23 mi (37 km) of Penang and the end of her voyage, when she was intercepted in the Malacca Straits by HMS Trenchant. In difficult conditions with a heavy swell running and a second U-boat thought to be lurking, Trenchant's commander Arthur Hezlet carried out a snap attack using his stern torpedo tubes, hitting U-859 amidships. The U-boat sank immediately in 50 m (160 ft) of water with several compartments flooded, and 47 men drowned, including her commander.
Twenty of the crew did manage to escape however, opening the hatch in the relatively shallow sea and struggling to the calm surface. Eleven of the survivors were picked up by HMS Trenchant immediately following the sinking, and the remaining 9 were picked up by the Japanese after being adrift for 24 hours and were taken ashore to await repatriation.[4]
Salvage
In 1972 a total of 12 tons of mercury were recovered from the U-859 and brought into Singapore. The West German Embassy claimed ownership of the mercury. The Receiver of Wreck took possession of the mercury, and the High Court of Singapore [English law school] ruled that "the German state has never ceased to exist despite Germany's unconditional surrender in 1945 and whatever was the property of the German State, unless it was captured and taken away by one of the Allied Powers, still remains the property of the German State..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-859#cite_note-4

Given that the Federal Republic of Germany is the legal successor of the German Reich (prevailing international opinion) and that there is the rule that the property of warships „is only lost by capture during battle (before sinking)... or by any express act of abandonment“, the u-boat and the mercury is property of Germany.

Consequence would be that Germany as the flag state has the duty to remove the wreck, if the wreck causes damage to the environment. If Germany fails to do so, Norway could remove the wreck as a reprisal and could claim damage afterwards.

Also, whoever wants to lift the wreck of the German Graf Spee in Uruguay better asks for Germany's approval because it is Germany's property. The US e.g. asked Germany first, before the US Navy defused the weapons of U 352 which had been sunk off the coast of North Carolina in 1942.

Anyway, I think it is unlikely that Germany will tough it out to be the owner of the mercury in the case of the U-864.

01-29-09, 12:35 PM	#1
_Seth_ Ocean Warrior Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: In Tromsoe, @Tirpitz' final resting place.. Posts: 3,277 Downloads: 94 Uploads: 0	U-864 is finally being raised! Today, the Norwegian government decided to raise the U-864 (Sank after being torpedoed outside Fedje during WWII) , due to the possible environmental damage all the mercury onboard could cause Link to norwegian newspaper: http://www.bt.no/lokalt/hordaland/article782736.ece __________________

01-29-09, 12:42 PM	#2
Letum Navy Seal Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: York - UK Posts: 6,079 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	It's a shame they have to disturb a grave, but mercury really is nasty stuff. __________________

01-29-09, 01:14 PM	#6
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 27,934 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	There was thoughts of making a huge dome to cover the entire boat. I would think this is best. Do not disturb the final resting place and possibility of spilling the mercury would be non-existant. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

01-29-09, 01:49 PM	#11
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 27,934 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	I'd say __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

01-29-09, 02:31 PM	#12
FIREWALL Eternal Patrol Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: CATALINA IS. SO . CAL USA Posts: 10,108 Downloads: 511 Uploads: 0	How deep is the sub ? If divers can reach it and work under those depths a high vacuum hose could suck the mercury out and leave sub and crew alone. There must be a better way than raising it. __________________ RIP FIREWALL I Play GWX. Silent Hunter Who ???

01-29-09, 01:07 PM	#4
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	The link dident help me since I cant read that but I'm wondering... Where did all this mercury come from? How much is there? Isnt there a possibility of doing more damage by trying to raise her as opposed to letting her lie?

01-29-09, 01:25 PM	#7
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	But how much mercury are we talking about? Is it barrels full? Or just in the switches / batterys etc. Seems to me if its just a few tilt switches and such yea best thing to do would be to leave it alone. But if its like 20 or more gallons then there is a cause for concearn. On an interesting footnote ... Did you know that the alchemial make up of sea water is virtually the same throughout the globe? A seawater sample taken in the gulf stream will have the same amount of gold, lead, mercury, arsinic, etc. as a sample taken in the bearing straights.

01-29-09, 04:26 PM	#13
limkol XO Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: looking in the bilge for a bottle opener Posts: 416 Downloads: 210 Uploads: 0	Just read that the boat went down with a crew of 73 according to Danish TV2's website. She was on her way to Japan with a cargo of 67 tons of mercury for weapons production and the drawings for a new Messerschmitt fighter Me 262. She was sunk by a torpedo from the British submarine 'Venturer' the 9th. of February 1945. Today she lies 150 metres below the surface only 2 nautical miles from the island of Fedje off Norways west coast. The boat is broken in 2 pieces and is leaking several kilos of mercury per year.

01-29-09, 05:19 PM	#14
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	What in the hell do you need 67 tons of mecury for munitions? Thats a hella lot of tilt switches or was it used for other things?

01-29-09, 05:47 PM	#15
Dan D Grey Wolf Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: 9th Flotilla Posts: 839 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	An interesting question here is:: who in fact will pay for the salvage costs and for the costs resulting from possible damage to the maritime environment? There was a similar case with U 859: "On 23 September U-859 was running on the surface, within 23 mi (37 km) of Penang and the end of her voyage, when she was intercepted in the Malacca Straits by HMS Trenchant. In difficult conditions with a heavy swell running and a second U-boat thought to be lurking, Trenchant's commander Arthur Hezlet carried out a snap attack using his stern torpedo tubes, hitting U-859 amidships. The U-boat sank immediately in 50 m (160 ft) of water with several compartments flooded, and 47 men drowned, including her commander. Twenty of the crew did manage to escape however, opening the hatch in the relatively shallow sea and struggling to the calm surface. Eleven of the survivors were picked up by HMS Trenchant immediately following the sinking, and the remaining 9 were picked up by the Japanese after being adrift for 24 hours and were taken ashore to await repatriation.[4] Salvage In 1972 a total of 12 tons of mercury were recovered from the U-859 and brought into Singapore. The West German Embassy claimed ownership of the mercury. The Receiver of Wreck took possession of the mercury, and the High Court of Singapore [English law school] ruled that "the German state has never ceased to exist despite Germany's unconditional surrender in 1945 and whatever was the property of the German State, unless it was captured and taken away by one of the Allied Powers, still remains the property of the German State..." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-859#cite_note-4 Given that the Federal Republic of Germany is the legal successor of the German Reich (prevailing international opinion) and that there is the rule that the property of warships „is only lost by capture during battle (before sinking)... or by any express act of abandonment“, the u-boat and the mercury is property of Germany. Consequence would be that Germany as the flag state has the duty to remove the wreck, if the wreck causes damage to the environment. If Germany fails to do so, Norway could remove the wreck as a reprisal and could claim damage afterwards. Also, whoever wants to lift the wreck of the German Graf Spee in Uruguay better asks for Germany's approval because it is Germany's property. The US e.g. asked Germany first, before the US Navy defused the weapons of U 352 which had been sunk off the coast of North Carolina in 1942. Anyway, I think it is unlikely that Germany will tough it out to be the owner of the mercury in the case of the U-864.