Really struggling with North atlantic convy mission

tmdgm · 03-15-11, 11:02 PM

I'm using LWami latest version and am really struggling with the North Atlantic Convoy mission.

I've finally figured out how to avoid the black jack missiles, just launch chaff.

Two other problems

1) How do you detect the sub to the north. I finally turned on truth and I still can't hear/see him in active sonar mode. I slowed to 1 knot and within 6000 yd and can't hear him or see him on the waterfall?

2) I ended up chasing the kilo away to the north (by accident i'm sure), but the kilo to the south launched torps. WHEN I GET A TORP IN THE WATER MESSAGE BEARING 140, WHAT DO I DO? Run away? I let loose the Nixie stream thingie. Anything else I can do? There's no countermeasures.

Molon Labe · 03-16-11, 12:10 AM

1. It is very hard to detect kilos on passive sonar unless they are moving quickly (say, 10 knots plus for Improved, 6 knots plus for standard). They are as detectable as anything else on active sonar though, and depending on aspect and sonar conditions you can expect contact from 3-10nmi or so.

2. Clear datum so that you're not in the acquisition cone when it enables. If fired from longer ranges (more than 5nmi) by all means, just drag (run away). The nixie is help if one acquires, but don't count on it too much because it can only stop one (I think you can reel it in an re-deploy and it'll work again, but that takes time).

Mr_Kaizer · 03-16-11, 11:54 AM

Were you using the towed array? The passive sonar in the bow wouldn't hear the Kilo even if you rammed it :P That's my experience at least.

tmdgm · 03-16-11, 05:52 PM

sorry, i should've mentioned i was using active sonar. And I couldn't hear him at all. I could hear the convoy (see the dots), but no dots for the kilo. I turned on show truth and put him right in front of me, ~6 nm ish (not 6000 yds), slow to a few knots and nothing. I was using omni and omni rotational at 20000 yds range continuous ping. Really odd.

So long range a torp, you can try running away. Medium range, do you try to "beam" the torp? Angle towards it, or away? or turn like crazy?

Molon Labe · 03-16-11, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmdgm

sorry, i should've mentioned i was using active sonar. And I couldn't hear him at all. I could hear the convoy (see the dots), but no dots for the kilo. I turned on show truth and put him right in front of me, ~6 nm ish (not 6000 yds), slow to a few knots and nothing. I was using omni and omni rotational at 20000 yds range continuous ping. Really odd.

First, the visual cues are less important than the audio cues. If you can hear the ping, you still have a detection... you're just going to need to mark somewhat blindly at the ping range.

Second, 6nm may be out of range depending on sonar conditions, aspect, and whether the Kilo is under the layer.

Quote:

So long range a torp, you can try running away. Medium range, do you try to "beam" the torp? Angle towards it, or away? or turn like crazy?

Beaming or stern quarter. If it acquires, a slight zigzag course will help the Nixie pick it up. Once you get the hang of it, you'll see just how hard it is for a Kilo to tag you with the rather poor weapons it has.

tmdgm · 03-18-11, 07:35 PM

hah, as strange as this sounds, i wasn't listening for the sound. I hear the whooop of the sonar going out, but i thought the sound was just for effect. Can't wait to get back in and try to see if i can hear him ping.

6nm out of range? I think i was closer, can't remember, but aren't you probably dead at 6 nm?

On the torpedo, how do i know if it acquires or when it enables?

How does a slight zigzag help the nixie pick it up? Actually, how does the nixie work in general? why can the nixie only stop one? Why do you have to reel it in and reel it out for it to work again? In fact, how does the nixie work? The manual explains how turn it on, but not tactics.

Sorry for all the questions, feel like i'm a kid again... What's dat for daddy?

also, i'm using lwami 3.10

Molon Labe · 03-18-11, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tmdgm

hah, as strange as this sounds, i wasn't listening for the sound. I hear the whooop of the sonar going out, but i thought the sound was just for effect. Can't wait to get back in and try to see if i can hear him ping.

6nm out of range? I think i was closer, can't remember, but aren't you probably dead at 6 nm?

No-escape range for Ruskie torpedoes vs. an FFG is around 3-4 nmi, and you can still evade even inside of that. Your weapon ranges vs. him are about the same, too. Don't forget you have a helicopter too, to provide some standoff capability.

Quote:

On the torpedo, how do i know if it acquires or when it enables?

Track it, if it turns to follow your evasion course you know it sees you. Sonobuoys are helpful for this, since your sonars are going to be washed out a lot.

Quote:

How does a slight zigzag help the nixie pick it up? Actually, how does the nixie work in general? why can the nixie only stop one? Why do you have to reel it in and reel it out for it to work again? In fact, how does the nixie work? The manual explains how turn it on, but not tactics.

The nixie works like any other decoy in the game--it provides a signal that is stronger than Ownship for a weapon to home in on. The slight zigzag moves the decoy laterally across the torpedo's LOS to Ownship while the Ownship moves laterally across the LOS in the opposite direction, causing the decoy to temporarily mask ownship and likely draw the weapon off of you. This is similar to submarine torpedo evasion tactics, but it's adjusted to reflect that the nixie is towed rather than free-floating.

My understanding of the "one-kill-limit" on the nixie is that it is considered "destroyed" after a torpedo detonates on it. Reeling it in and re-deploying it simulates putting a second unit out.

tmdgm · 03-19-11, 12:21 PM

Unfortunately, the helicopter takes 60 min to get ready in the North Atl mission. By the time it's ready, it's all over.

For knowing when the torp has acquired, sonobuoys seemed like they would take too long to launch and read, but i guess now that i think about it, it could work depending on range. Like you said, your own sonar stuff is washed out cuz i'm usually moving too fast to hear anything. And i'm usually turned away from the torp.

Played it last night, can't believe I never "listened" for the target on active sonar. It was alot more fun (and fair) now that i can hear them with active. Altho, it was a pain to blindly click and mark, but it worked. I just did the single band stream, moved it around till i heard him and marked. I was easier to find.

Thx for info on the nixie. One other question, do i deploy the nixie as soon as i get a torp launch indication or wait till it acquires?

Molon Labe · 03-19-11, 12:39 PM

I usually put it out at the TIW, that way I don't have to worry about having anything sneak up on me (my FFG sonar skills aren't that great). There might be an advantage to deploying the nixie late in that you don't have to worry about the nixie capturing torpedoes that never would have acquired you in the first place. The disadvantage to that would be that a torpedo that might have seen the nixie first sees you first, and the zigzag is going to have to be executed successfully to get the torpedo to switch targets.

tmdgm · 03-19-11, 02:53 PM

k thx.

I just finished playing another FFG mission. Are there any tips for launching torps from the helo? i.e. target to launch within a certain range of the contact, don't launch too close, make sure you're approaching the target etc?

Molon Labe · 03-19-11, 06:03 PM

1000 yd to the left of the target (based on the direction of flight of the helicopter) and set to head toward the side or front of the target after it turns (to the right).

tmdgm · 03-20-11, 08:50 AM

ah ok, didn't know that. I'm guessing that's because it does a circle pattern and turns to the right first?

Thx. much appreciated. Is there anything out there to read on tactics like for torps, nixie etc? Manual doesn't say anything about tactics.

Cuz i have another one.

Is there any way to get audible alert warnings when a missile is inbound? I have all autocrew turned off except TMA. I can't complete alot of the missions because i'm too busy with sonar trying to find subs, and when i switch to map view, i see a missile heading for the merchants and sometimes it's too late.

Molon Labe · 03-20-11, 11:19 AM

I'd recommend MaHuJa's FFG guide (pdf)--don't know which of those is more recent. There aren't many to choose from, though.

Using CM autocrew can sort of give you an audio alert because it will fire some chaff when something is coming in and there is a crew report and SFX associated with that.

tmdgm · 03-20-11, 03:17 PM

thx, yea, i was hoping to keep Counter measure autocrew off as i like being actively involved with the response. Was just hoping for something with and audible alert so i know to go to countermeasure.

tmdgm · 03-20-11, 06:48 PM

actually, setting EW to auto gives audible warnings. I never use that station that much so that seems to work.

Also, i just figured out you can't drop torpedoes from helos' or ownship in shallow water. They hit the bottom.

03-15-11, 11:02 PM	#1
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Really struggling with North atlantic convy mission I'm using LWami latest version and am really struggling with the North Atlantic Convoy mission. I've finally figured out how to avoid the black jack missiles, just launch chaff. Two other problems 1) How do you detect the sub to the north. I finally turned on truth and I still can't hear/see him in active sonar mode. I slowed to 1 knot and within 6000 yd and can't hear him or see him on the waterfall? 2) I ended up chasing the kilo away to the north (by accident i'm sure), but the kilo to the south launched torps. WHEN I GET A TORP IN THE WATER MESSAGE BEARING 140, WHAT DO I DO? Run away? I let loose the Nixie stream thingie. Anything else I can do? There's no countermeasures.

03-16-11, 12:10 AM	#2
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	1. It is very hard to detect kilos on passive sonar unless they are moving quickly (say, 10 knots plus for Improved, 6 knots plus for standard). They are as detectable as anything else on active sonar though, and depending on aspect and sonar conditions you can expect contact from 3-10nmi or so. 2. Clear datum so that you're not in the acquisition cone when it enables. If fired from longer ranges (more than 5nmi) by all means, just drag (run away). The nixie is help if one acquires, but don't count on it too much because it can only stop one (I think you can reel it in an re-deploy and it'll work again, but that takes time). __________________

03-19-11, 12:39 PM	#9
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	I usually put it out at the TIW, that way I don't have to worry about having anything sneak up on me (my FFG sonar skills aren't that great). There might be an advantage to deploying the nixie late in that you don't have to worry about the nixie capturing torpedoes that never would have acquired you in the first place. The disadvantage to that would be that a torpedo that might have seen the nixie first sees you first, and the zigzag is going to have to be executed successfully to get the torpedo to switch targets. __________________

03-19-11, 06:03 PM	#11
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	1000 yd to the left of the target (based on the direction of flight of the helicopter) and set to head toward the side or front of the target after it turns (to the right). __________________

03-20-11, 11:19 AM	#13
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	I'd recommend MaHuJa's FFG guide (pdf)--don't know which of those is more recent. There aren't many to choose from, though. Using CM autocrew can sort of give you an audio alert because it will fire some chaff when something is coming in and there is a crew report and SFX associated with that. __________________

03-16-11, 11:54 AM	#3
Mr_Kaizer Watch Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 24 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Were you using the towed array? The passive sonar in the bow wouldn't hear the Kilo even if you rammed it :P That's my experience at least.

03-16-11, 05:52 PM	#4
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	sorry, i should've mentioned i was using active sonar. And I couldn't hear him at all. I could hear the convoy (see the dots), but no dots for the kilo. I turned on show truth and put him right in front of me, ~6 nm ish (not 6000 yds), slow to a few knots and nothing. I was using omni and omni rotational at 20000 yds range continuous ping. Really odd. So long range a torp, you can try running away. Medium range, do you try to "beam" the torp? Angle towards it, or away? or turn like crazy?

03-18-11, 07:35 PM	#6
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	hah, as strange as this sounds, i wasn't listening for the sound. I hear the whooop of the sonar going out, but i thought the sound was just for effect. Can't wait to get back in and try to see if i can hear him ping. 6nm out of range? I think i was closer, can't remember, but aren't you probably dead at 6 nm? On the torpedo, how do i know if it acquires or when it enables? How does a slight zigzag help the nixie pick it up? Actually, how does the nixie work in general? why can the nixie only stop one? Why do you have to reel it in and reel it out for it to work again? In fact, how does the nixie work? The manual explains how turn it on, but not tactics. Sorry for all the questions, feel like i'm a kid again... What's dat for daddy? also, i'm using lwami 3.10

03-19-11, 12:21 PM	#8
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	Unfortunately, the helicopter takes 60 min to get ready in the North Atl mission. By the time it's ready, it's all over. For knowing when the torp has acquired, sonobuoys seemed like they would take too long to launch and read, but i guess now that i think about it, it could work depending on range. Like you said, your own sonar stuff is washed out cuz i'm usually moving too fast to hear anything. And i'm usually turned away from the torp. Played it last night, can't believe I never "listened" for the target on active sonar. It was alot more fun (and fair) now that i can hear them with active. Altho, it was a pain to blindly click and mark, but it worked. I just did the single band stream, moved it around till i heard him and marked. I was easier to find. Thx for info on the nixie. One other question, do i deploy the nixie as soon as i get a torp launch indication or wait till it acquires?

03-19-11, 02:53 PM	#10
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	k thx. I just finished playing another FFG mission. Are there any tips for launching torps from the helo? i.e. target to launch within a certain range of the contact, don't launch too close, make sure you're approaching the target etc?

03-20-11, 08:50 AM	#12
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	ah ok, didn't know that. I'm guessing that's because it does a circle pattern and turns to the right first? Thx. much appreciated. Is there anything out there to read on tactics like for torps, nixie etc? Manual doesn't say anything about tactics. Cuz i have another one. Is there any way to get audible alert warnings when a missile is inbound? I have all autocrew turned off except TMA. I can't complete alot of the missions because i'm too busy with sonar trying to find subs, and when i switch to map view, i see a missile heading for the merchants and sometimes it's too late.

03-20-11, 03:17 PM	#14
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	thx, yea, i was hoping to keep Counter measure autocrew off as i like being actively involved with the response. Was just hoping for something with and audible alert so i know to go to countermeasure.

03-20-11, 06:48 PM	#15
tmdgm Engineer Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 219 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	actually, setting EW to auto gives audible warnings. I never use that station that much so that seems to work. Also, i just figured out you can't drop torpedoes from helos' or ownship in shallow water. They hit the bottom.