Flyable Vintage aircraft on display in Seattle

[SUBMAN1]

If anyone is heading through the area in the next couple days, you might want to stop in Everett to check this out:

http://www.kirotv.com/slideshow/ente...98/detail.html

First pic is an ME-109! Figured there were none flyable anymore, but I guess I'm wrong!

-S

[Biggles]

Considering the worldwide use of the Messerschmitts, I'm sure there are quite alot of them out there today. Probably at least a dozen which is useable too.

[Schroeder]

Nope, there are hardly any real ones left. Those here in Germany are all CASAs (Spanish license production of the 109 but uses the Rolls Royce Merlin instead of the DB600s) which were converted and are now using DB engines. Two of them just got damaged recently. Both because of landing gear malfunctions....(Red 7 and Black 2)

IIRC the last flyable real 109 crashed a few years ago in the UK (Black 6) and is now on static display only.

[AntEater]

The two 109s of the Messerschmitt foundation are BASED on Buchon's but are hardly conversions. "D-FMBB", at least in its first shape, was nothing more than a Buchon with a DB 605 slapped onto it, true, but especially the Red 7 is basically a newly build 109G-4 with a few parts taken from a spanish Buchon. Black 2 (the one at ILA) is a mixture of CASA, czech build Avia S-199 and original parts.
Luckily both are repairable and Black 2 was even only slightly damaged.
But regarding these supposedly "original" 109Es were all recovered from the Murmansk area in the 1990s, you can't safely fly a tundra recovery plane without exchanging every structural component there is. I wouldnt trust my life on a main wing spar that was:
- most likely damaged in combat
- subjected to a crash landing in rough terrain
- left there for 60 years in a climate with extreme seasonal temperature changes
- salvaged by shady russian "businessmeny" in the Yeltsin era

So these "original" 109s contain less original parts than most museum exhibits and should by all means considered replicas. The only genuine WW2 build 109 to fly was "Black 6" in Britain, which is now a museum piece, all others are more or less newly rebuild, as are most warbirds still flying today.
But of course these recovery birds all have very interesting histories, since they're from JG 5 and were mostly hand-down planes from other units, often with 2-3 years service.
Serveral other such "restorations" are still underway in the US, Canada, Germany and Russia.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

If anyone is heading through the area in the next couple days, you might want to stop in Everett to check this out:

http://www.kirotv.com/slideshow/ente...98/detail.html

First pic is an ME-109! Figured there were none flyable anymore, but I guess I'm wrong!

-S

You mean a Bf-109?

Anyway, nevermind flying 109's there is a project bringing a couple of 262's back into the skies.
http://www.stormbirds.com/project/index.html

[Schroeder]

@antikristuseke
You can use both terms. The designations Me 109 and Bf 109 were both used.

I saw a 262 flying at the ILA in Berlin just about a week ago.

@AntEater

Wasn't the entire fuselage of the Red 7 taken from a Buchon and only the wings and rudders were from original 109 G-6s?:hmm:

[antikristuseke]

Cant wait to see a flying 262, thats one thing likely to give me wet dreams. Aswell as seeing a Tiger and Panther tank in full working order. After im done with my national service im going to have to start visiting tank museums, Kubinka first, then Bovington, then i'll see.

[AntEater]

The basis is a buchon, yes, but they pretty much "de-buchonized" it as much as it was possible. Red 7 is sofar the most thorough rebuild of a flying 109.
Not entirely sure about the exact aerodynamics, but since the Merlin turns into the opposite direction as the DB 605 (simply because the 605 is basically "upside down ), the fuselage of the Buchon was build to accomodate the torque in the opposite direction as necessary for a DB. That apparently led to the crash of the first D-FMBB. I think the current D-FMBB solves that with trim, but Red 7 is structurally rebuild for a 605. Generally the plane looks (or at least looked in 2005, two crashes ago ) much like the genuine article.
I didn't spot many differences between the genuine "Nesthäkchen" G-4 in Speyer and Red 7 when I looked her over. Even the cockpit was very similar, with original instruments and all, only the ammo counters were replaced by a modern radio/gps. I think there was even a gunsight installed or at least brackets for it.

With Black 2, the whole thing is much more difficult to say as the plane is really a hodgepodge, and even if the used a Buchon as a template they had to replace the whole tail with a late-war wooden assembly. AFAIK the fuselage of Black 2 (D-FDME) is from a czech Avia. Still, Black 2 is my favorite of the EADS 109s, as it is a much more powerful late-war G-10 and it has a historical paint job as "Nose" Müller's Nightfighter with which he scored some of his 30+ RAF bomber kills.

Btw, EADS has a fourth 109, a rebuild Buchon/G2 similar to Red 7, which is apparently not flyable.

Also, some warbird enthusiasts in Freiburg are restoring a russian recovery 109F.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

...You mean a Bf-109? ...

I stand corrected! I've heard it used both ways, but I do believe you are correct in that Bf-109 is more appropriate.

-S

[nikimcbee]

So this must be Paul Allen's museum. I hear he has a P-40C . Now I'd go to see that!

I hear he also requires that all the planes fly every so often.

[Platapus]

Is the Me 262 that is flying using the original engine design?

I can't imagine that. The 109-004 engine had a service life of about 30 hours max. I can't believe that anyone could get parts for replacement for this 1930's design.

Any idea what engine the Me 262 that is currently flying uses?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Platapus

Is the Me 262 that is flying using the original engine design?

I can't imagine that. The 109-004 engine had a service life of about 30 hours max. I can't believe that anyone could get parts for replacement for this 1930's design.

Any idea what engine the Me 262 that is currently flying uses?

No. The original engines were not used as they were considered a danger. They used something else, though I can't remember the manufacturer. Also, the new engines have more thrust, so that's cheating a bit there too.

-S

[Platapus]

I guess you can only take restoration so far when the aircraft has to actually function safely.

Still it is awesome that someone got the ole Me 262 a flyin

[Schroeder]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

I stand corrected! I've heard it used both ways, but I do believe you are correct in that Bf-109 is more appropriate.

-S

As I already pointed out you can use both designations. Even the "Reichsluftfahrtministerium" (Reichs aviation ministry) used both of them.

[AntEater]

The 109 is officially a "Bf", but "Me" is often used.
Apparently the Seattle 109E is not a russian recovery, but rather based on parts (main spar, 1 and a half wing and landing gear) dug up in France in 1988, at least according to http://www.preservedaxisaircraft.com.
Thats why it wears the Battle of Britain JG 51 paint job, but basically it is a new aircraft.
Stupid is that every preserved P-40C HAS to be painted as AVG aircraft! The P-40Cs are almost always russian recoveries and some had a perfectly preserved markings with red stars, and some were even flown by russian aces! Yet that history was erased for the sake of that AVG worshipping.
The 262s use US engines, I think the same as in some early US aircraft. The Jumo 004 is not inherently dangerous, but the wartime engines of that type have a very short life and low tolerances due to shortage of precious materials.
A Jumo 004 with the right alloys would have been a good engine, but constructing a engine from scratch is above the head of most warbird projects.
DB 605s are readily available, it seems, but other axis aero engines are not.

Btw, I don't suppose the FW-190D-13 has ever flown since restoration. It is airworthy, but it is a singulary aircraft in so many ways that no one sane would risk to crash it. It is the only 190 Dora in any displayable shape (one other is a very slow restoration project in germany) and the most original german WW2 aircraft, with most original parts still there.
Not to mention that the Jumo 213 engine is irreplacable as well.