German commandos let Taleban commander escape due to ROE

[Skybird]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...554033,00.html


Damn stupid German policies.

But we mean it oh so well, isn't that worth something, too? - Not even what the dog leaves behind on the sides of the street.

German special forces had an important Taliban commander in their sights in Afghanistan. But he escaped -- because the Germans were not authorized to use lethal force. The German government's hands-tied approach to the war is causing friction with its NATO allies.
(...)
Nonetheless, even in a time of growing threats in Afghanistan, Berlin is sticking to its "principle of proportionality," stressed one high-ranking official in the Defense Ministry. A fugitive like the Baghlan bomber is not an aggressor and should not be shot unless necessary, the official explains.
Soldiers from Britain's British Special Air Service or the US's Delta Force are less bothered about such hair-splitting. For them, this is a war in which it comes down to "kill or be killed," say sources in military circles in Kabul. The "targets" are identified, tracked down and -- often with the help of laser-guided weapons systems -- "eliminated."

A massmurderer and terrorist in the run - being a fugitive instead a taregt...? Germany - little country for lunatics.

And the result of Germany's weak mind and heart and raised sensibility for poor terrorist's needs and sorrows and fears:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...547037,00.html

Either gow in in full size and with uncompromised determination, or leave and get out of the way. Either fight - or don't, and get out of the way. Either do as you talk - or be silent, and get out of the way.

[bradclark1]

Damn stupid German policies.

It's as in all politics world wide. You are wrong going one way(WWII) and to make up for it you go extemes the other way.

[Herr_Pete]

all you ever hear is that commandos capture leaders of the taliban. How many of them is there.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Herr_Pete

all you ever hear is that commandos capture leaders of the taliban. How many of them is there.

I would think that anyone who commands or runs groups could be called a leader. It's just good PR not to state level or how low I guess unless he's a major player.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Skybird

http://www.spiegel.de/international/...554033,00.html


Damn stupid German policies.

We (Germany) are currently lacking politicians who have morals, like honor & visions and not looking for the next election.

Some Germans will laugh, but I wish Helmut Kohl back!

[Schroeder]

Laughing.
Sorry but I think that exactly that guy was just looking for the next election. Do you still remember the "blooming landscapes" in the GDR?

O.K. that was OT now, sorry.

[Hawk66]

Politics is actually a matter of opinion; I know (otherwise we would not need Democracy)

But do you remember his (and Helmut Schmidt's) tough decisions regarding the NATO Double-Track Decision?. I heavlily doubt, that our current leaders would have the courage to do it again.

[AntEater]

Kohl?
Seriously, this guy was just a bully with a lot of friends in the (Springer) press to praise him. And his post reunification economic policy was just the biggest waste of money in german history.
As said, Schmidt was a really good Chancellor.

Re the Germans in Afghanistan, our ROE is a mess. Everything has to be approved at ministry level.
Officially, Germany is not at war and accordingly Taliban are just criminals. Worse, the german officialdom treats the Afghan authorities as if they were german. Remember the police training fiasco. Germany trained Afgans basically to become police officers in Germany while all the Afghans wanted was some guys who can regulate traffic and hold an AK.
Problem is, the Taliban are not playing along. Apparently they haven't heard that the North is supposed to be "quiet".

But seriously, regarding the "leaders" and such:
No matter wether you kill them or arrest them, there's no shortage of leaders.
The problem is that western militaries are caught in this "effect based" thinking. Basically, you have to target a key area, either a facility or a person to unravel the whole enemy structure. Nice theory and worked quite well 1991.
Just like any "magical solution" to warfare sooner or later it stops working because everybody has read the book.
Problem is, in a guerilla war, basically everybody is replacable, at least if the guerillas enjoy popular support.
You can't just kill/arrest anyone and expect the rest to stop fighting. The US could kill 20.000 alledged Vietcong leaders in the Phoenix program and they still lost the war.
You can only fight guerillas by cutting off their supplies. Funny is, in Vietnam this was not possible because the suppliers of the Guerillas were the worst enemies of the US, the USSR and China.
In Afghanistan it is not possible because the suppliers are the best friends of the US, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia.
Times change...
:rotfl:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

We (Germany) are currently lacking politicians who have morals, like honor & visions and not looking for the next election.

Some Germans will laugh, but I wish Helmut Kohl back!

I have no desire for Birne, as my generation used to call him, but I recommend this reading:

Helmut Schmidt: "Auf der Suche nach einer öffentlichen Moral".
http://www.amazon.de/Suche-nach-eine...1224738&sr=8-2

Beyond that, I can only remind all Germans here of Peter Scholl-Latour, who only has laughter and mockery for the leftists and green "revoluzzers" of the 60s and 70s and 80s - that today try to playact as "Staatsmänner" and talk about global issues and war and peace and engage in badly thought out military adventures. It is hilarious.

[August]

Originally Posted by AntEater

The US could kill 20.000 alledged Vietcong leaders in the Phoenix program and they still lost the war.

Actually the Viet Cong alone, even supplied by the Soviets and Red Chinese, would not have been able to carry on the war beyond '67. Aside from their leadership losses from the Phoenix program, which were more significant than they admit (even to this day), the Tet Offensive pretty much finished them as a fighting force. It was all the North Viets show after that.

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by August

the Tet Offensive pretty much finished them as a fighting force. It was all the North Viets show after that.

The North meant for Tet to finish them off. That was the objective.

[AntEater]

It is still debated wether Tet was just a ploy by Giap to get rid of the all too independent southern guerillas who sometimes deviated from the party line. The Viet Cong, contained more than just communists faithful to Hanoi. Same as Castro's Guerillas were a mix of every political faction before he seized power.
Wether deliberate or not, at Tet the Vietcong came out voluntarily. The Taliban sofar have shown no sign of a similar offensive though I suppose they could pull off something similar, with similar results.

Btw, another german idiocy in Afghanistan:
Norwegians are engaged again. The QRF has crossed into the western sector to engage taliban forces there. A german general has overall command, but the actual fighting is done by Norway. A whopping 63 german soldiers were to support this OP in various staff, ELINT and medical functions. While the Norwegians with US support were preparing, the decision to send this army of 63 staffers, clerks, spooks and medics over an imaginary line in Afghanistan had to be made at ministry level (!) and took a week (!) by which the operation was well underway.
Funny is, Germany well take over QRF duties in July, so I suppose the german overall commander wants to land some decisive blow while he still has a fighting force that can move and even fight without written permission that is first forgotten, then subjected to public enquiry, then thrown away, then used for nest building of endagered species, then eaten and **** out again and then......

[Platapus]

Let's look at what the article says:

"The Taliban commander is regarded as a brutal extremist with excellent connections to terror cells across the border in Pakistan. "

"Security officials consider him to be one of the most dangerous players in the region, which is under German command as part of NATO's International Security Assistance Force (ISAF) mission in Afghanistan."

"The military accuses him of laying roadside bombs and of sheltering suicide attackers prior to their bloody missions."

"He is also thought to be behind one of the deadliest attacks..."

Seems like an awful lot of "is regarded", "considers", "accuses", and "thought to be" but little evidence or proof of guilt here.

"Germany's KSK special forces have been charged with capturing the terrorist, in cooperation with the Afghan secret service organization NDS and the Afghan army. "

If they have been charged with capturing him then killing him is not the mission. Perhaps the Germans are more interested in completing the mission than just scoring a kill? Perhaps capturing him, even if it takes longer, will result in more intelligence then just whacking him.

Maybe the Germans are interested in interrogating him to find out if he is guilty instead of just settling for "is regarded", "considers", "accuses", and "is thought to be?

I know that in America just being " regarded", "considered", "accused", and "thought to be" is enough to be killed on sight. But Germany may be different.

Not every objective in war is obtained by killing someone. The disciplined collection of intelligence, while not satisfying the blood lust, is often more important to the mission.