What in the he$$ happened?

[Segwin]

Setup perfect for a sonar shot. Kept updating range, must have pinged the ship 2 dozen times, had angle of the bow set - knew the course and set up via tdc, took speed measurements - 4 times via mark, wait 3 min and mark again then measure distance. It was night and pitch black outside so sonar was the only way.

As you can see from the pic the range was way off, the speed was way off... I don't understand. :hmm: :hmm: :hmm:

When I saw this happen I thought there might have been two ships so I went back to the sonar and tuned around the dial but only picked up one contact.

[Rockin Robbins]

First of all, you don't have a plot there! You can't hit squat unless you have a plotted track to confirm newly acquired data against. I don't see marks for two position points three minutes apart, so I don't understand how you measured speed. A plot is how you find error and refine data. No plot equals no booms!

Interestingly, it looks like your impact point is set up ahead of the target. If your speed is nearly correct and you're set up for a solution that is too far away, the effect is the same as underestimating speed. But since you are led too far ahead of the target, a shot might well hit here! You are certainly close enough to absorb medium sized error without causing a miss.

So, what you have here is an interesting situation without enough information to analyse. In this case i cannot tell you what the he$$ happened.

[Segwin]

That pic is from the attack map which I thought was best to illustrate what happened. Correct me if I'm wrong however I don't think all the marks port over from the nav map. That's why you can't see a plot or marks for speed timing.

[Rockin Robbins]

I should have known that. A look at the nav map would be very enlightening. I still think you have a 30% probability hit there. I have been known to swim a fish out there and correct for the second shot for a hit. Forget about range. If you miss ahead, reduce TDC speed input. If you miss astern, increase it. Shoot again for the hit. Sometimes when you're that close you'll get the hit on the first shot.

I'm a little suspicious that there's something wrong with your sonar/TDC technique looking at the amount of range error, which shouldn't exceed 10 or 15% in most cases. Are you throwing the "send range to TDC" switch or pushing the toolbar button and verifying that number with the TDC? Are you watching to ensure you are entering middle of the error range numbers?

[Wilcke]

Its a very satisfying shot this hydrophone only attack. I use Werners method for pinging, I ping three times to get a good average range to the target. Then I send that to the TDC. This is way out there 15000 yards. Once you get the speed and track. You still need to confirm and refine all the data. You can opt for using the Position Keeper but if you do a lot of maneuvering you are going to need a lot of updates to keep it current and viable.

I could be wrong but in my experience I prefer to set up a Dick O' Cane shot with the hydrophone on those dark and poor visibility nights.

Use the Single Mission Borneo Convoy to hone the blade. Plenty of targets, predictable, repeatable and the tin cans are not to rabid.

RR,

I watched your DOK video last night very good. Interesting about double clicking the TDC triangle. When is the new one coming out? Well done!

[Quillan]

I don't know if this is what happened to you, but what I've found in TMO/RSRDC is that when I get to within 2000-2500 yards of the merchant, they start zig-zagging. I've begun taking 2500-3000 yard shots just to stop this. I've lost track of how many times I've set up my shot using the radar, gotten well ahead of the target and submerged to lie in wait, been having the sonar man follow the closest target, only to have them start weaving when they get to that 2000 yard distance mark. Most of the time, though, they only vary by 300-400 yards to each side of their course, though.

If you're running RSRDC, the other possibility is bad luck, which I've also had a bunch of. The ship routes in RSRDC zig-zag naturally, and at least a dozen times I've set up for a ship/convoy/task force, only to have them hit one of those points and veer off in a new direction right before reaching the firing point!

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Wilcke

I watched your DOK video last night very good. Interesting about double clicking the TDC triangle. When is the new one coming out? Well done!

Ya, I think I'm the first to notice that in order for the TDC to show the proper angles you have to click the send button twice, and I know that I am the first to actually document it. You have inspired me to do a Dick O'Kane Sonar Only attack. I think that could be fun. My provisional Dick O'Kane tutorial video.

First I have to finish my complete from the ground up reinstallation so I can have the latest version of TMO running. I hate running the stock game with the x on the attack screen and the color coded friend or foe, velocity vectors, ship silhouettes....the list goes on and on of all the things in the stock nav map that the captain would not have in a real submarine. I want to demonstrate with TMO. I hope to complete reassembly tonight.

While I was at it I made two pristine installations, one of 1.4 and one of 1.5 and write protected them. They will never be played, but only be used to pull myself out of the quicksand if I pull a stupid move again that corrupts my installation. I can grab a copy of any original file in seconds.

[Segwin]

Originally Posted by Quillan

I don't know if this is what happened to you, but what I've found in TMO/RSRDC is that when I get to within 2000-2500 yards of the merchant, they start zig-zagging. I've begun taking 2500-3000 yard shots just to stop this. I've lost track of how many times I've set up my shot using the radar, gotten well ahead of the target and submerged to lie in wait, been having the sonar man follow the closest target, only to have them start weaving when they get to that 2000 yard distance mark. Most of the time, though, they only vary by 300-400 yards to each side of their course, though.

If you're running RSRDC, the other possibility is bad luck, which I've also had a bunch of. The ship routes in RUSTIC zig-zag naturally, and at least a dozen times I've set up for a ship/convoy/task force, only to have them hit one of those points and veer off in a new direction right before reaching the firing point!

Thanks, I am running TMO/RSRD as well. Played and replayed this setup numerous times. What seems to be off is the angle on bow. I have a good plot for the direction the target is heading and I enter the heading into the TDC via AOB however, with map updates on, I'm off between 5-10 degrees on compass heading. In other words when I have the 3000 yd rose up my map update position and my TDC plot/position on the rose don't jive. I finally did manage a sonar sinking but I had to adjust AOB to match the map update, not actually targets heading.

[Quillan]

On your TDC, if you look at the upper dial, the 0° on the inner part is pointing to the true course of the target, based on your input. If that doesn't match what you're getting from your plot on the nav map, adjust the AOB until it does.

[Wilcke]

OK in RSRDC the convoys are doing zig zag. Could this be the issue for a miss? That still does not explain the differences in range.

You have to average the zigs and zags and come up with an average course. Get closer and shoot....try 1000 yards. See how it works and post again.

RR,

Get to work we need the new flick! Oh, and your voice is great, are you in radio?

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Quillan

I don't know if this is what happened to you, but what I've found in TMO/RSRDC is that when I get to within 2000-2500 yards of the merchant, they start zig-zagging.

I beleive some merchants, are equiped with hydrophones. If your not at silent running and moving at a higher submerged speed, that will most likely start them to zig zag.

[Rockin Robbins]

Originally Posted by Wilcke

RR,

Get to work we need the new flick! Oh, and your voice is great, are you in radio?

Naw, I worked for the college radio station and had connections at radio stations but I figured the partying lifestyle would kill me so I didn't pursue the career. My resistance to partying was always too low.:rotfl:Good thing I knew it and corrected course.

[steinbeck]

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

Ya, I think I'm the first to notice that in order for the TDC to show the proper angles you have to click the send button twice, and I know that I am the first to actually document it. You have inspired me to do a Dick O'Kane Sonar Only attack. I think that could be fun. My provisional Dick O'Kane tutorial video.

First I have to finish my complete from the ground up reinstallation so I can have the latest version of TMO running. I hate running the stock game with the x on the attack screen and the color coded friend or foe, velocity vectors, ship silhouettes....the list goes on and on of all the things in the stock nav map that the captain would not have in a real submarine. I want to demonstrate with TMO. I hope to complete reassembly tonight.

While I was at it I made two pristine installations, one of 1.4 and one of 1.5 and write protected them. They will never be played, but only be used to pull myself out of the quicksand if I pull a stupid move again that corrupts my installation. I can grab a copy of any original file in seconds.

Enjoyed your tutorial! nice and slow so one can understand it! But I was intrigued as to what mod/s you have going when you made that vid, they looked very good and sometimes it helps to tell the viewers what mods are in use when videos are made so we can understand why we may or may not have them on our boats

If that all makes sense, I know what I meaN!!

steinbeck...:up:

[Quillan]

Ducimus, I have been at periscope depth, at full stop, silent running on, at 2am with the wind blowing 15 m/s, and still had a merchant start zig-zagging at 2000 yards. I know they didn't see me, and I'm almost positive they didn't hear me. I adapted and overcame, so it's no big deal.

[Segwin]

Originally Posted by Quillan

On your TDC, if you look at the upper dial, the 0° on the inner part is pointing to the true course of the target, based on your input. If that doesn't match what you're getting from your plot on the nav map, adjust the AOB until it does.

That's what I did, lining up the 0 to match the targets course heading, but still had to adjust the AOB to match. Point is though if you enter the AOB as stated you shouldn't need to adjust it. Line 0 up to targets course, end of story - I don't understand the need to adjust part on what should be a given I guess.