Running surfaced with periscopes up

Orffen · 04-03-08, 02:05 AM

I've seen a few videos and some of the loading screen images showing subs running surfaced with both of their scopes up.

I realise this improves visual detection range a bit, but I'm curious as to what the doctrine was during the war.

Did sub commanders run with scopes up, or just rely on their deck watch while surfaced? Was there an official line, or was it just left up to each individual commander to decide?

Torplexed · 04-03-08, 05:40 AM

I imagine in some cases scopes were simply left up because it looked impressive in a photograph or newsreel. Given the limited field of view through the lens, it really wouldn't be advantageous to have a man below manning the scope while surfaced when you have lookouts posted....and radar.

Platapus · 04-03-08, 05:50 AM

That was called a "high Periscope watch"

From my readings there did not seem to be any official protocol on when a Captain could or could not use it.

I imagine the speed of the boat and the sea state would determine the effectiveness of a high periscope watch. A pitching/rolling boat will make that periscope, extended about 40' really sway.

Sirkam · 04-03-08, 05:57 AM

I read somewhere a tactic to improve the visibility (specially in the night), a seaman go to the periscope when the sub is surfaced and see much more sea (Its method is real and very used by the submarine crew).

Rockin Robbins · 04-03-08, 07:36 AM

High periscope watch was one of the brilliant strategies developed by Eugene Fluckey to increase his search radius. He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. Reference his book "Thunder Below" which I previously quoted on this same matter when some questioned the high periscope watch's authenticity.

Partly as a result of using high periscope watch and by his yo-yoing strategy of staying on the surface at cruising speed every possible second, Fluckey, whose career started in March or April 1944, a time when many boats were returning to base full of torpedoes finding no targets, garnered more decorations than any submarine of the war. But he was more proud of the one medal that was not awarded to any crew member of Barb: the purple heart.

Nisgeis · 04-03-08, 07:37 AM

I have read war patrols where it has been entered 'spotted target on high periscope' trying to find an entry now. Preferably without the word 'Submerged' before it.

Edit:

USS Razorback,

11th March 1945

0945 Sighted submarine on high periscope bearing 191 degrees T; exchanged recognition signals and calls with USS SPOT (SS413).
1045 Sighted U.S. submarine, not identified.
1115 Made section dive; surfaced at 1145.

Although it should be noted that they also say they sight things through the high periscope whilst submerged also. Does high periscope actually mean height, or does it mean high power magnification? I understand there was a procedure for periscope searches, using fast low power sweeps and slow high power sweeps, especially important with the observation scope before surfacing for looking for enemy aircraft.

peewee · 04-03-08, 10:40 AM

I think the important thing to note here is something RR said

"He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. "

Radar is fine until you meet a warship which can detect your emissions.......

Wilcke · 04-03-08, 10:45 AM

Very good points. For historical realism purposes, is there a source on how the Navy (Silent Service) ran their procedures on the boats while on combat patrol. If you guys have ran into any sources by all means post the links or books.

I would really like to put together the SOPs for the periscope watches, pre-surfacing procedures and tracking party....etc...PDF them and up load them. I am not a sea guy at all, pilot so check lists for everything, even for going to the potty.

Thanks in advance!

kylesplanet · 04-03-08, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rockin Robbins

High periscope watch was one of the brilliant strategies developed by Eugene Fluckey to increase his search radius. He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. Reference his book "Thunder Below" which I previously quoted on this same matter when some questioned the high periscope watch's authenticity.

Partly as a result of using high periscope watch and by his yo-yoing strategy of staying on the surface at cruising speed every possible second, Fluckey, whose career started in March or April 1944, a time when many boats were returning to base full of torpedoes finding no targets, garnered more decorations than any submarine of the war. But he was more proud of the one medal that was not awarded to any crew member of Barb: the purple heart.

I'm reading Thunder Below right now and Admiral Fluckey sure comes off as a very smart, inovative skipper. I'm about halfway through it and I'll say this, he had some grapefruits.

Orffen · 04-03-08, 03:19 PM

Great to see this many replies, thanks guys!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wilcke

Very good points. For historical realism purposes, is there a source on how the Navy (Silent Service) ran their procedures on the boats while on combat patrol. If you guys have ran into any sources by all means post the links or books.

I would really like to put together the SOPs for the periscope watches, pre-surfacing procedures and tracking party....etc...PDF them and up load them. I am not a sea guy at all, pilot so check lists for everything, even for going to the potty.

Thanks in advance!

I'd love to see this

Buffalo9 · 04-03-08, 04:52 PM

I use to do it in SHIII all the time. My biggest concern was could I dive to PD with the scope up and not tear it off.
Just remember that if you need to crash dive you really need to stow that thing away

-Pv- · 04-03-08, 05:03 PM

There is no damage modeling on periscope for high speed dive in 3 or 4, but the important thing is the shears are usually the last thing under and when being attacked, you want to get out of sight as fast as possible. When I crash dive, the Ctrl-Delete/Contrl-PageDown are the next keys I hit (even if I think they are already down.)
-Pv-

Munchausen · 04-03-08, 07:30 PM

A couple places where "high periscope" is mentioned:

"Clear the Bridge" by O'Kane, page 67.
"Submarine Diary" by Mendenhall, page 181.

Kapitan_Phillips · 04-03-08, 08:51 PM

I wouldnt use that kind of watch scheme if I could help it. I'd much rather miss a task force than give them a silhouette to shoot at :p

Takao · 04-03-08, 11:08 PM

Current Doctrine
Submarines

USF 25(A)

Prepared By
COMMANDER SUBMARINE FORCE, PACIFIC FLEET
FEBRUARY, 1944

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/...oct/index.html

Chapter 1, Section 2:
1222. While cruising on the surface in daylight, the highest periscope should be manned, as an additional lookout station.

04-03-08, 02:05 AM	#1
Orffen Mate Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Queensland, Australia Posts: 54 Downloads: 214 Uploads: 0	Running surfaced with periscopes up I've seen a few videos and some of the loading screen images showing subs running surfaced with both of their scopes up. I realise this improves visual detection range a bit, but I'm curious as to what the doctrine was during the war. Did sub commanders run with scopes up, or just rely on their deck watch while surfaced? Was there an official line, or was it just left up to each individual commander to decide? __________________ Can't help coming back to SH3!

04-03-08, 05:40 AM	#2
Torplexed Let's Sink Sumptin' ! Join Date: Dec 2001 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 5,823 Downloads: 43 Uploads: 0	I imagine in some cases scopes were simply left up because it looked impressive in a photograph or newsreel. Given the limited field of view through the lens, it really wouldn't be advantageous to have a man below manning the scope while surfaced when you have lookouts posted....and radar. __________________ --Mobilis in Mobili--

04-03-08, 05:50 AM	#3
Platapus Fleet Admiral Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 19,373 Downloads: 63 Uploads: 0	That was called a "high Periscope watch" From my readings there did not seem to be any official protocol on when a Captain could or could not use it. I imagine the speed of the boat and the sea state would determine the effectiveness of a high periscope watch. A pitching/rolling boat will make that periscope, extended about 40' really sway. __________________ abusus non tollit usum - A right should NOT be withheld from people on the basis that some tend to abuse that right.

04-03-08, 05:57 AM	#4
Sirkam Frogman Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Spain Posts: 289 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	I read somewhere a tactic to improve the visibility (specially in the night), a seaman go to the periscope when the sub is surfaced and see much more sea (Its method is real and very used by the submarine crew). __________________

04-03-08, 07:36 AM	#5
Rockin Robbins Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: DeLand, FL Posts: 8,900 Downloads: 135 Uploads: 52	High periscope watch High periscope watch was one of the brilliant strategies developed by Eugene Fluckey to increase his search radius. He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. Reference his book "Thunder Below" which I previously quoted on this same matter when some questioned the high periscope watch's authenticity. Partly as a result of using high periscope watch and by his yo-yoing strategy of staying on the surface at cruising speed every possible second, Fluckey, whose career started in March or April 1944, a time when many boats were returning to base full of torpedoes finding no targets, garnered more decorations than any submarine of the war. But he was more proud of the one medal that was not awarded to any crew member of Barb: the purple heart. __________________ Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks, Slightly Subnuclear Mk 14 & Cutie, Slightly Subnuclear Deck Gun, EZPlot 2.0, TMOPlot, TMOKeys, SH4CMS

04-03-08, 07:37 AM	#6
Nisgeis Ocean Warrior Join Date: Jan 2008 Posts: 2,909 Downloads: 77 Uploads: 11	I have read war patrols where it has been entered 'spotted target on high periscope' trying to find an entry now. Preferably without the word 'Submerged' before it. Edit: USS Razorback, 11th March 1945 0945 Sighted submarine on high periscope bearing 191 degrees T; exchanged recognition signals and calls with USS SPOT (SS413). 1045 Sighted U.S. submarine, not identified. 1115 Made section dive; surfaced at 1145. Although it should be noted that they also say they sight things through the high periscope whilst submerged also. Does high periscope actually mean height, or does it mean high power magnification? I understand there was a procedure for periscope searches, using fast low power sweeps and slow high power sweeps, especially important with the observation scope before surfacing for looking for enemy aircraft. Last edited by Nisgeis; 04-03-08 at 07:48 AM.

04-03-08, 10:40 AM	#7
peewee Electrician's Mate Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Iowa Posts: 135 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I think the important thing to note here is something RR said "He calculated that high periscope almost doubled the area of sea surface he could search each day without using radar. " Radar is fine until you meet a warship which can detect your emissions.......

04-03-08, 10:45 AM	#8
Wilcke The Old Man Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,441 Downloads: 234 Uploads: 0	Very good points. For historical realism purposes, is there a source on how the Navy (Silent Service) ran their procedures on the boats while on combat patrol. If you guys have ran into any sources by all means post the links or books. I would really like to put together the SOPs for the periscope watches, pre-surfacing procedures and tracking party....etc...PDF them and up load them. I am not a sea guy at all, pilot so check lists for everything, even for going to the potty. Thanks in advance! __________________ Wilcke **For the best in Fleet Boats go to: Submarine Sim Central. http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php Check out: A Brief Introduction to the Pacific Submarine War by Ducimus http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128185 Operation Monsun plus OMEGU, the #1 ATO Solution for SH4! Signature Art by Gunfighter**

04-03-08, 04:52 PM	#11
Buffalo9 Seaman Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 31 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I use to do it in SHIII all the time. My biggest concern was could I dive to PD with the scope up and not tear it off. Just remember that if you need to crash dive you really need to stow that thing away

04-03-08, 05:03 PM	#12
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	There is no damage modeling on periscope for high speed dive in 3 or 4, but the important thing is the shears are usually the last thing under and when being attacked, you want to get out of sight as fast as possible. When I crash dive, the Ctrl-Delete/Contrl-PageDown are the next keys I hit (even if I think they are already down.) -Pv-

04-03-08, 07:30 PM	#13
Munchausen Commodore Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 608 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 1	A couple places where "high periscope" is mentioned: "Clear the Bridge" by O'Kane, page 67. "Submarine Diary" by Mendenhall, page 181.

04-03-08, 08:51 PM	#14
Kapitan_Phillips Silent Hunter Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Swansea Posts: 3,903 Downloads: 204 Uploads: 0	I wouldnt use that kind of watch scheme if I could help it. I'd much rather miss a task force than give them a silhouette to shoot at :p __________________ Well, here's another nice mess you've gotten me into.

04-03-08, 11:08 PM	#15
Takao Officer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 244 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Current Doctrine Submarines USF 25(A) Prepared By COMMANDER SUBMARINE FORCE, PACIFIC FLEET FEBRUARY, 1944 http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/...oct/index.html Chapter 1, Section 2: 1222. While cruising on the surface in daylight, the highest periscope should be manned, as an additional lookout station.