Type VIIB or Type VIIC?

[Zajcev]

Is Type VIIC worth getting? I'm playing my first campaign in stock SH3 1.4. Right now it's July 1941. According to spec, VIIC doesn't have any advantage over VIIB. VIIB is faster and lighter. They have the same torpedo load.

If I get IXC, will it have more torpedoes at least?

I have noticed a serious bug with dud torpedoes when they are enabled. It's not actually dud torpedoes but indestructible ships. I saw a C3 300m away, fired 2 torpedoes using magnetic detonators running at different depth (about 1m under keel) but neither did explode. I reloaded and tried about 3 times with different depths and aimed for different parts of the ship, but those 2 torpedoes never exploded. Then I tried a couple of times contact detonation - setting torpedoes at zero depth, or ~3m, but they didn't explode either even after a couple of reloads. Then I reloaded, waited for the indestructible C3 to sail away and targeted a T3 behind it ~800m away with magnetic detonator and 1 torpedo sank it. Then I used the 2nd torpedo to sink another C2 which was behind the C3. Torpedo worked again, and damaged the ship. It seems only that particular C3 was buggy, since I sank other C3s a couple of times.

I would say dud torpedo setting in stock SH3 is unplayable. I would expect that either detonation is random (so after reload torpedo could detonate) or that a torpedo is marked as "bad" and will never explode even after reload even if you target a different ship. But that's not the case. It seems on some ships torpedoes never explode, no matter what settings you use. So if your first torpedo doesn't explode, don't waste another one.

The worst situation is during a storm, when magnetic detonators don't seem to work (regardless of depth), deck gun cannot be used and contact detonators never work.

For some reason, in 1941 contact detonators only work in perhaps 10% of the cases regardless of angle, speed, type of torpedo, weather when dud torpedoes are enabled. I noticed this problem with both pre war torpedo and the electric torpedo. But I prefer to use steam torpedo due to its speed as I tend to attack destroyers or merchants from under ~400m. On the other hand, magnetic detonators seem to be 90% reliable if depth is set correctly. The rest is those indestructible ships.

[Penelope_Grey]

I'd say it is worth getting.

VIIC can go deeper, and it crash dives faster than the VIIB. Also the VIIC has more options for upgrade, particularly with conning towers.

Which gives you better defence against aircraft, however, aircraft aren't really much of a threat in the out the box game, so you'll have a happier time shooting at them with the VIIC/3 tower fitted.

In the main, VIIC is better.

As for your torpedoes, that sounds very odd, contact detonators never malfunction. I can only think you are perhaps hitting the ship at too extreme and angle?

[Platapus]

The Type VIIc is more upgradable than the Type VIIb.

As to the eternal question Type VIIc or Type IX?

If you ask 10 Kaluens here you will get 15 different answers.

The Dud torpedo functions are frustrating. But then Dud Torpedoes in real life were frustrating.

If you are playing with Dud Torpedoes activated, I would suggest that you disable the magnetic pistol and go for impact only. This is actually what Germany ended up doing as they had similar problems with their torpedoes that the American's and Japanese did. Don't just aim for contact hits, you have to disable the magnetic pistol or you will risk premature detonations.

If you are shooting against merchants I would also recommend a more shallower depth as early German torpedoes also had a tendency to run deep.

The Book "Iron Men and Tin Fish" is a pretty good history of the problems the three countries had with their torpedoes. What is especially interesting is how each country handled the problems.

"For some reason, in 1941 contact detonators only work in perhaps 10% of the cases regardless of angle, speed, type of torpedo, weather when dud torpedoes are enabled. I noticed this problem with both pre war torpedo and the electric torpedo. But I prefer to use steam torpedo due to its speed as I tend to attack destroyers or merchants from under ~400m"

90% failure rate in contact detonators seems way too high. I have never experienced a failure rate anywhere near that high playing GWX.

I would not shoot at under 400 M. The torpedoes need about 350 meters to properly arm. Could some of your "duds" be some of your torpedoes boinking on the side of the ship before they could be armed? I tend not to shoot under 500 meters

Good luck with this.

Good Hunting

[Zajcev]

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

VIIC can go deeper, and it crash dives faster than the VIIB. Also the VIIC has more options for upgrade, particularly with conning towers.

I never had a need to go very deep in 1940 or 1941. The maximum depth I went to was about ~60m before I learnt how to sink destroyers effectively. Now sinking ~6 destroyers is not a problem at all, and I don't need to go deeper than 25m.

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

Which gives you better defence against aircraft, however, aircraft aren't really much of a threat in the out the box game, so you'll have a happier time shooting at them with the VIIC/3 tower fitted.

I think the zwilling AA in VIIB can also down bombers quite easily if set to fire at close distance. If bombers are flying low, they mostly start burning straight away after 1st pass. Although additional AA might be good if I decide to go into their harbors and sink ships there (are there ships in harbors in stock SH3 anyway?).

Originally Posted by Penelope_Grey

As for your torpedoes, that sounds very odd, contact detonators never malfunction. I can only think you are perhaps hitting the ship at too extreme and angle?

I play original SH3 1.4 without any mods. It is odd, but when I use contact detonators and hit ship from ~50-80 degrees (where 90 is perpendicular) they don't explode in campaign. On the othe hand, magnetic detonators work quite well even from ~20 degree angle.

Originally Posted by Platapus

If you are playing with Dud Torpedoes activated, I would suggest that you disable the magnetic pistol and go for impact only. This is actually what Germany ended up doing as they had similar problems with their torpedoes that the American's and Japanese did. Don't just aim for contact hits, you have to disable the magnetic pistol or you will risk premature detonations.

I always use combined magnetic+impact pistol but set torpedoes to run ~1.3m beneath keel. I found this method most reliable. Actually, for some strange reason pure impact detonators don't seem to work at all (in campaign they don't, in training they work - but in training I don't have duds enabled). They work at times, but the chance is very small. On the other hand, I never had a serious problem with magnetic detonators, I depth is set correctly. Most of failures were due to torpedo running too deep, ship turning or due to those "invincible ships". So I always use magnetic detonators since for me in 1941 they are very reliable and very effective - which is quite strange. Perhaps most players set wrong depth on them? It might also be the fact that I don't engage ships further than 800m, and mostly engage at ~400m. If they run at maximum speed they don't have much time to suffer from depth control.

Originally Posted by Platapus

90% failure rate in contact detonators seems way too high. I have never experienced a failure rate anywhere near that high playing GWX.

I do not play GWX, just stock 1.4 without mods. Maybe in GWX dud torpedoes were fixed?

Originally Posted by Platapus

I would not shoot at under 400 M. The torpedoes need about 350 meters to properly arm. Could some of your "duds" be some of your torpedoes boinking on the side of the ship before they could be armed? I tend not to shoot under 500 meters

It is theoretically possible that I was firing from too close, but I sank another C2 from the same range that C3 was unsinkable. I think I also managed to sink a merchant from 200m. I always sank them using magnetic detonator.

[Jimbuna]

The VIIC for the upgrade potential every time

[Zajcev]

Originally Posted by Platapus

I would not shoot at under 400 M. The torpedoes need about 350 meters to properly arm. Could some of your "duds" be some of your torpedoes boinking on the side of the ship before they could be armed? I tend not to shoot under 500 meters

I ran some tests in Gibraltar port where I found a docked destroyer (that kept pinging me but couldn't move ). At close distance, both impact and magnetic torpedoes failed to detonate. But if distance was more than 300m, magnetic torpedo worked flawlessly. So I was probably just firing at ships too close. Therefore I extended my prefered range to 400m-1000m.

Originally Posted by jimbuna

The VIIC for the upgrade potential every time

Thanks, I will keep the VIIB until the end of 1941 due to its greater speed, and then upgrade. In the middle of 1941 VIIC is not so advantageous. I would also like to try IX at some point maybe in 1943-1944.

[predavolk]

I'm also thinking of upgrading my boat. What are the upgrades available to the VIIC that aren't available to the B? It's my understanding that they're pretty similar boats otherwise, with the 41/42 being the real leap forward. Max depth and sensors are my concerns, I don't care about flak towers etc. because I don't duel airplanes in GWX.

Also, if you switch a boat, then switch back to your previous boat, do you spend renown? Ultimately, if I ever get there, I'd love to save enough for a XXI so I don't want to burn too much renown hopping through different boat types. I was thinking a VIIB until 41, then a XIB/C for a year or two, then a VIIC-42, then a XXI.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by Zajcev

I never had a need to go very deep in 1940 or 1941. The maximum depth I went to was about ~60m before I learnt how to sink destroyers effectively. Now sinking ~6 destroyers is not a problem at all, and I don't need to go deeper than 25m.

Despite the upgrades I still really like the VIIB, its small, agile, has a good diving speed, and carries the same torpedo load as the VIIC. Some of the most infamous feats like Prien's sinking the Royal Oak, and Kretschmer's tonnage record were both done using type VIIB's. Some of the most famous boats were VIIB's - U47, U48, and U99. Underwater batteries last longer too, which will become a major factor (even in the stock game) around mid 1943 as aircraft start to become a major problem. While the VIIC is undoubtedly the workhorse, personally I prefer to wait till the VIIC/41 becomes available (or type XXI if I've got enough reknown at the time).

Originally Posted by Zajcev

I think the zwilling AA in VIIB can also down bombers quite easily if set to fire at close distance. If bombers are flying low, they mostly start burning straight away after 1st pass. Although additional AA might be good if I decide to go into their harbors and sink ships there (are there ships in harbors in stock SH3 anyway?).

To really combat the increasing number of aircraft after 1943 the IXD2 is the only boat that I've personally found that can actually hold its own against the endless barrage of planes and bombers. Even in the stock game the air assault is relentless; even if you down a whole squadron or two you'll find that the enemy just keeps sending more out till they sink you or force you to submerge and then try to pick you off when you resurface. Once you get the snorkel things get a bit easier as you can quickly replenish the O2 and recharge the batteries a little at a time until a plan spots it and starts carpet bombing your area.

Harbor raiding in stock SHIII is frustrating as there's a bug that can cause all the ships to sink inside the harbor before you get there. Harbor raiding in much more lucrative in GWX; but also tenfold harder, but then again the rewards are generally much greater as its not hard to get 50,000 tons or more once you finally make it into the actual harbor. Plus you get the chance to sink battleships and carriers, something you rarely if ever see in the stock version.

Originally Posted by Zajcev

I play original SH3 1.4 without any mods. It is odd, but when I use contact detonators and hit ship from ~50-80 degrees (where 90 is perpendicular) they don't explode in campaign. On the othe hand, magnetic detonators work quite well even from ~20 degree angle.

Magnetic sensors word best at ~ 75 - 120 degrees, the longer the eel is under the boat the better chance you have of it exploding correctly. When they do work they can keelbust any ship with a well placed shot. Last night I sunk the Hood (again, 3rd time in 2 patrols) with 1 eel targeted just aft of the last stack using the magnetic setting @ 13.5 meters. When they work magnetic detonation can sink pretty much anything in 1 shot if placed well.

Originally Posted by Zajcev

I do not play GWX, just stock 1.4 without mods. Maybe in GWX dud torpedoes were fixed?

If your comp can handle it I'd play GWX anyway, though harder than the stock game the hundreds of mods make it sooo much better than the stock version.

Originally Posted by Zajcev

It is theoretically possible that I was firing from too close, but I sank another C2 from the same range that C3 was unsinkable. I think I also managed to sink a merchant from 200m. I always sank them using magnetic detonator.

Think the absolute minimum for the torpedo's to arm themselves is 300m. Have fired away at ships at 250m at they missed regardless of how close or even if they weren't moving. Unless the target is stationary, 400m is a safe range to ensure that the torpedo's arm themselves.

Ultimately the VIIB/VIIC is an endless debate, the VIIC does have more upgrades undoubtedly; then again all those upgrade suck up reknown. If you're trying to save up to det a nicer boat getting the upgrades can prolong that for several patrols. If you wanna try a type IX, should probably wait a few extra months till the IXC becomes available rather than jumping on the IXB. Though the IX's carry a lot more torpedo's, they didn't call them sea cows for nothing; their dive times suck and during an aerial raid your flak tower will get damage (or worse if a bomber scores a good hit) 90% of the time while diving if there are planes still around.

Even if you're playing stock I'd still recommend checking out SHIII commander, that program is extremely cool and usefull for managing your crew and keeping track of things. Other is SH3Gen which generate an intelligence report that shows were certain ships have been spotted or are suspected to be, and a lot more.

[Zajcev]

Originally Posted by Tessa

Some of the most infamous feats like Prien's sinking the Royal Oak, and Kretschmer's tonnage record were both done using type VIIB's. Some of the most famous boats were VIIB's - U47, U48, and U99. Underwater batteries last longer too, which will become a major factor (even in the stock game) around mid 1943 as aircraft start to become a major problem. While the VIIC is undoubtedly the workhorse, personally I prefer to wait till the VIIC/41 becomes available (or type XXI if I've got enough reknown at the time).

There are already quite a lot of bombers in late 1941 - it's not unusual to get attacked below the lattitude of Lorient. The best spot for convoys seems to be to the west of Cornwall. But there you can get attacked by 6 bombers easily, with more comming later. I heard flak is not as effective in GWX, is that true? Are bombers harder to hit there, or was the crew made less accurate?

Originally Posted by Tessa

Harbor raiding in stock SHIII is frustrating as there's a bug that can cause all the ships to sink inside the harbor before you get there. Harbor raiding in much more lucrative in GWX; but also tenfold harder, but then again the rewards are generally much greater as its not hard to get 50,000 tons or more once you finally make it into the actual harbor. Plus you get the chance to sink battleships and carriers, something you rarely if ever see in the stock version.

Can I switch to GWX while continuing my current campaign?

[Penelope_Grey]

Can I switch to GWX while continuing my current campaign?

I'm afraid not. when you switch to GWX or any of the other big mods (I think) then what happens is you need to restart a fresh.

However, if you want some advice from the GWX Navigator. Since we are working guns blazing on GWX 2.1 you could, do the following.

Finish your campaign in SH3 then when you are finished start again with GWX. I did that with the first GWX and wow was I glad I did.

At the moment we are on GWX 2, and you can get the files for GWX 2 from my signature or pretty much any of the other GWX team members. Once you download them file them away in a folder somewhere for future use.

GWX 2.1 is going to be released soon. When it is that is that... GWX on SH3 is finished. But user support will continue as normal.

[Col. Caldwell]

I go for the VIIC, mainly for the upgrade options (conning towers), underwater maneuverability, and faster dive time than the larger boats.

[NealT]

Originally Posted by Zajcev

There are already quite a lot of bombers in late 1941 - it's not unusual to get attacked below the lattitude of Lorient. The best spot for convoys seems to be to the west of Cornwall. But there you can get attacked by 6 bombers easily, with more comming later. I heard flak is not as effective in GWX, is that true? Are bombers harder to hit there, or was the crew made less accurate?

I would myself go to a Type VIIC over the VIIB and a type IXC over either one of them.

Reason? IMHO, they are better ships. However, it is a matter of personal preference...

I would also plan on attacking from under the water anytime in/after 1941...much better chance of survival.