Dumb Things the AI Does That You Want Fixed

LuftWolf · 01-22-08, 12:24 AM

Hi!

Since the database update is out there somewhere being done, I've thought about doing some work on the AI doctrines.

Of course, since I haven't actually played any DW in the last six months (oh xbox live... turns out I'm a stone cold murderer in FPS's... amateur free agent cyber-athelete, currently with a bush-league clan on gamebattles.com

) I'm not exactly sure what's doing on other than it's got doctrines and submarines...

SO, what AI behaviors would you have me tweak, assuming I can still do such a thing?

Now that my job situation is settled, perhaps I can actually give you guys what you ask for this time, as opposed to welching out like others in the past... which I told myself I wouldn't do.

Hope everyone has been good... seems like a nice flow of people coming through these days.

Cheers,
David

Blacklight · 01-22-08, 12:34 AM

I'd really like to see those oil rigs able to be hit with all weapons, not just torpedoes and TSAMS, but the Sakurra mod is a definite great start !!!

(His mod saved the campagn that I thought I was going to have to scrap)

AI ? Lets see... How about working with the special forces deployed from the subs. There are a lot of times when you release them to go to a target and they just run off in their own direction.
On a side note, I'd also like to see special forces be able to attack oil rigs as well instead of just sailing into it, crashing and taking damage. (Call me obsessed with the oil rigs... I'm trying to design a "Death Star" of an Oil Rig as well as an "Undersea Base" version of one as time allows)

I'd like to see "Collision avoidance" between AI ships tweaked. When I make a convoy wether they be in a line or in a carrier group (Spaced the proper distances that the ships in a carrier group should be from each other), the minute they see a weapon, they steer all over the place and crash into each other. It's like their attention focuses entirely on the approaching weapon, and not on each other's locations. Also... after the attack, when the convoy goes to maneuver back into a convoy formation, they don't see each other and crash into each other. All of this occurs to me even with "Collision Avoidance" turned on for each of the ships.

I'd like you to take a look at that if you could.

SleazeyWombat · 01-22-08, 12:50 AM

I was playing the Clyde mission this weekend, flying the P-3. I watched all of the following on the replay.

I had laid mines across the narrow part of the strait, and eventually, a southbound Ruski sub triggered a couple of the Captors.

The torps began snaking to the east toward the hapless sub, and a couple of southbound Russian Kara surface combatants which happened to be very close by at that moment. The Kara AI's both scrambled to avoid the torps in the water.

One Kara fled east; the other successfully evaded to the south. The sub released an active decoy. One torp hit the sub, but didn't kill it. The sub settled to the bottom at a depth of 150 feet or so. It didn't move for the remainder of the scenario; I guess it lost propulsion, which may have helped it to avoid the second torp.

The decoy fooled that torp, which continued snaking to the east, but there were no subs for it to acquire. The torp now appeared to me (and to the AI I'm sure) to be actively chasing the second Kara, which continued east at high speed, trying to avoid the torp snaking after it.

The Kara AI thought the torp was after it, not knowing that Captor torpedoes won't acquire surface vessels. Eventually the Kara grounded itself on the unforgiving coast.

Whether it was an AI failure or not, this was a cool little drama to watch!

Dr.Sid · 01-22-08, 05:56 AM

DSRV , A to Z

sonar732 · 01-22-08, 07:14 AM

Luftwolf,

Glad to see you back ol' bean. If you ever want to chat about old times, give me a pm! I haven't been playing DW that much either thanks to the step-son and my new found love of Star Wars games on the PS2. You've got to watch Chewy pull the arms off of a enemy in Lego Star Wars. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

Molon Labe · 01-22-08, 08:25 AM

The most annoying thing or me is that every ship/sub on a Side will flank to identify an unknown contact. I'd like to see that task handed off to aircraft whenever possible, or at least, for subs to proceed at no more than tactical speed if they are sent to investigate. Some platforms should not even be in the business of identifying unknown contacts at all, e.g., SSBNs.

Molon Labe · 01-22-08, 11:16 AM

BTW, if we're going to get moving on this, I think we should have the involved parties get together and figure out what our priorities are going to be and how we should do what we plan to do. (In other words, I'm going to be pissed if I go forward on the damage scaling plan only to have to redo the whole thing in response to late feedback, or if the next installment simply isn't going to address that issue.) Amizaur has also been around a bit as of late and might be able to help with doctrine work; his main concern at the moment is creating more comprehensive documentation.

Doc Savage · 01-22-08, 03:59 PM

Had more than a couple of occasions lately when my sub was fired on by AI surface ships using ASROCs. They always seem to shoot too far, as in the things shoot over my head and land far on the other side with no hope of ever hitting me. The AI seems to adjust its range after awhile but usually I am long gone by the time that happens.
I think they usually get a pretty good fix on me sometimes so its probably not bad AI TMA. In one occasion I was detected first by a helo on MAD which turned around after the ship fired to drop a torp neatly on my head (I guess he wanted to show the ship how it was done).

Anyway, I dunno if this has been discussed before (I remember reading something about an ASROC fix... or was it SUBROCS?) or if it is even fixable but...

GrayOwl · 01-22-08, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

Hi!

Since the database update is out there somewhere being done, I've thought about doing some work on the AI doctrines.

Of course, since I haven't actually played any DW in the last six months (oh xbox live... turns out I'm a stone cold murderer in FPS's... amateur free agent cyber-athelete, currently with a bush-league clan on gamebattles.com

) I'm not exactly sure what's doing on other than it's got doctrines and submarines...

SO, what AI behaviors would you have me tweak, assuming I can still do such a thing?

Now that my job situation is settled, perhaps I can actually give you guys what you ask for this time, as opposed to welching out like others in the past... which I told myself I wouldn't do.

Hope everyone has been good... seems like a nice flow of people coming through these days.

Cheers,
David

Very joyfully your returning!

Dr.Sid · 01-23-08, 05:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Savage

Had more than a couple of occasions lately when my sub was fired on by AI surface ships using ASROCs. They always seem to shoot too far, as in the things shoot over my head and land far on the other side with no hope of ever hitting me. The AI seems to adjust its range after awhile but usually I am long gone by the time that happens.
I think they usually get a pretty good fix on me sometimes so its probably not bad AI TMA. In one occasion I was detected first by a helo on MAD which turned around after the ship fired to drop a torp neatly on my head (I guess he wanted to show the ship how it was done).

Anyway, I dunno if this has been discussed before (I remember reading something about an ASROC fix... or was it SUBROCS?) or if it is even fixable but...

This was fixed in like first version of LWAMI. Do you use LWAMI ?

OneShot · 01-23-08, 07:40 AM

@Lw : On a related note, I don't know if you are aware of it but there is a Project Tracker now for the LwAmi Mod here : http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...hp?projectid=2 . I'd suggest you check it out and let me know if you have any questions.

Might be helpful to start using it ...

SeaQueen · 01-23-08, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

SO, what AI behaviors would you have me tweak, assuming I can still do such a thing?

The AI fires off torpedoes and VLA with complete disregard for it's own safety and that of other ships it's trying to defend. This is stupid and unrealistic. It'd be nice if it did things like set some presets to ensure it wouldn't hit itself, and maybe be more judicious about VLA salvos. Shooting off all 8 is a little bit excessive. The way it shoots it's almost as much of a danger to itself and everyone around it as it is to the thing it's trying to kill.

LuftWolf · 01-23-08, 11:49 AM

Well, the biggest limitation of the way the DW handles AI, is that it isn't possible for a platform to reference two other platforms relative to each other.

In other words, if there is a distant target and a friendly or neutral in between, there is no way to say to the objective platform "don't fire on that target because there is a potential blue-on-blue". In DW, the AI going to fire, and the faith is that the automatic presets put on the weapon will prevent the friendly fire... obviously, this doesn't always happen.

I've been thinking about how to get around this, but no luck so far...

Another limitation is that the doctrine system appears to merely provide the AI platforms with "suggestions" on what they should do in terms of weapons use and how they handle contacts. Very few of the doctrine commands actually command the AI to do something directly... it's more like it puts the idea of doing it on their proverbial radar, and then the AI core in the NavalSimEngine determines if they are actually going to do it.

I'd imagine the contract versions of DW have a much more reliable way of directing AI behavior...

Cheers,
David

Doc Savage · 01-23-08, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doc Savage

Had more than a couple of occasions lately when my sub was fired on by AI surface ships using ASROCs. They always seem to shoot too far, as in the things shoot over my head and land far on the other side with no hope of ever hitting me. The AI seems to adjust its range after awhile but usually I am long gone by the time that happens.
I think they usually get a pretty good fix on me sometimes so its probably not bad AI TMA. In one occasion I was detected first by a helo on MAD which turned around after the ship fired to drop a torp neatly on my head (I guess he wanted to show the ship how it was done).

Anyway, I dunno if this has been discussed before (I remember reading something about an ASROC fix... or was it SUBROCS?) or if it is even fixable but...

This was fixed in like first version of LWAMI. Do you use LWAMI ?

yes. 3.08. I had thought it had been fixed as well...

nevermind then. I must have it installed wrong or something.

Sea Demon · 01-23-08, 07:58 PM

Thanks for the informative thread. When playing the FFG, I normally like to play it with hostile surface platforms on the prowl. And I normally am escorting an Arleigh Burke or Tico and I act as it's primary ASW escort, and let him handle most of the AAW/ASuW work.

When doing this, one thing I hate about the AI in the AB or Tico is whenever my Helo promotes a hostile surface platform to the link, the AB or Tico will immediately unload 6-8 Harpoons, without a refined range solution. This will sometimes cause the Harpoons to miss it's intended platform as range and bearing have not been refined enough for an adequate solution. I wouldn't know how this could ever be fixed, but the TAO's of the AB's and Tico's have too much of an itchy trigger finger. Perhaps make them fire only when solution confidence is high???

01-22-08, 12:24 AM	#1
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Dumb Things the AI Does That You Want Fixed Hi! Since the database update is out there somewhere being done, I've thought about doing some work on the AI doctrines. Of course, since I haven't actually played any DW in the last six months (oh xbox live... turns out I'm a stone cold murderer in FPS's... amateur free agent cyber-athelete, currently with a bush-league clan on gamebattles.com ) I'm not exactly sure what's doing on other than it's got doctrines and submarines... SO, what AI behaviors would you have me tweak, assuming I can still do such a thing? Now that my job situation is settled, perhaps I can actually give you guys what you ask for this time, as opposed to welching out like others in the past... which I told myself I wouldn't do. Hope everyone has been good... seems like a nice flow of people coming through these days. Cheers, David __________________ LW

01-22-08, 12:34 AM	#2
Blacklight Ocean Warrior Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Connecticut Posts: 2,507 Downloads: 145 Uploads: 0	I'd really like to see those oil rigs able to be hit with all weapons, not just torpedoes and TSAMS, but the Sakurra mod is a definite great start !!! (His mod saved the campagn that I thought I was going to have to scrap) AI ? Lets see... How about working with the special forces deployed from the subs. There are a lot of times when you release them to go to a target and they just run off in their own direction. On a side note, I'd also like to see special forces be able to attack oil rigs as well instead of just sailing into it, crashing and taking damage. (Call me obsessed with the oil rigs... I'm trying to design a "Death Star" of an Oil Rig as well as an "Undersea Base" version of one as time allows) I'd like to see "Collision avoidance" between AI ships tweaked. When I make a convoy wether they be in a line or in a carrier group (Spaced the proper distances that the ships in a carrier group should be from each other), the minute they see a weapon, they steer all over the place and crash into each other. It's like their attention focuses entirely on the approaching weapon, and not on each other's locations. Also... after the attack, when the convoy goes to maneuver back into a convoy formation, they don't see each other and crash into each other. All of this occurs to me even with "Collision Avoidance" turned on for each of the ships. I'd like you to take a look at that if you could. __________________ Be my friend or be a mushroom cloud. "I am coming at you. You will explode in a couple of minutes !"

01-22-08, 08:25 AM	#6
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	The most annoying thing or me is that every ship/sub on a Side will flank to identify an unknown contact. I'd like to see that task handed off to aircraft whenever possible, or at least, for subs to proceed at no more than tactical speed if they are sent to investigate. Some platforms should not even be in the business of identifying unknown contacts at all, e.g., SSBNs. __________________

01-22-08, 11:16 AM	#7
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	BTW, if we're going to get moving on this, I think we should have the involved parties get together and figure out what our priorities are going to be and how we should do what we plan to do. (In other words, I'm going to be pissed if I go forward on the damage scaling plan only to have to redo the whole thing in response to late feedback, or if the next installment simply isn't going to address that issue.) Amizaur has also been around a bit as of late and might be able to help with doctrine work; his main concern at the moment is creating more comprehensive documentation. __________________

01-23-08, 07:40 AM	#11
OneShot Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 956 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	@Lw : On a related note, I don't know if you are aware of it but there is a Project Tracker now for the LwAmi Mod here : http://www.commanders-academy.com/fo...hp?projectid=2 . I'd suggest you check it out and let me know if you have any questions. Might be helpful to start using it ... __________________ All the things you always wanted to know about Dangerous Waters but never dared to ask!

01-22-08, 12:50 AM	#3
SleazeyWombat Mate Join Date: May 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 57 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	I was playing the Clyde mission this weekend, flying the P-3. I watched all of the following on the replay. I had laid mines across the narrow part of the strait, and eventually, a southbound Ruski sub triggered a couple of the Captors. The torps began snaking to the east toward the hapless sub, and a couple of southbound Russian Kara surface combatants which happened to be very close by at that moment. The Kara AI's both scrambled to avoid the torps in the water. One Kara fled east; the other successfully evaded to the south. The sub released an active decoy. One torp hit the sub, but didn't kill it. The sub settled to the bottom at a depth of 150 feet or so. It didn't move for the remainder of the scenario; I guess it lost propulsion, which may have helped it to avoid the second torp. The decoy fooled that torp, which continued snaking to the east, but there were no subs for it to acquire. The torp now appeared to me (and to the AI I'm sure) to be actively chasing the second Kara, which continued east at high speed, trying to avoid the torp snaking after it. The Kara AI thought the torp was after it, not knowing that Captor torpedoes won't acquire surface vessels. Eventually the Kara grounded itself on the unforgiving coast. Whether it was an AI failure or not, this was a cool little drama to watch!

01-22-08, 05:56 AM	#4
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	DSRV , A to Z

01-22-08, 07:14 AM	#5
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Luftwolf, Glad to see you back ol' bean. If you ever want to chat about old times, give me a pm! I haven't been playing DW that much either thanks to the step-son and my new found love of Star Wars games on the PS2. You've got to watch Chewy pull the arms off of a enemy in Lego Star Wars. :rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:

01-22-08, 03:59 PM	#8
Doc Savage Seaman Join Date: Feb 2006 Posts: 32 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Had more than a couple of occasions lately when my sub was fired on by AI surface ships using ASROCs. They always seem to shoot too far, as in the things shoot over my head and land far on the other side with no hope of ever hitting me. The AI seems to adjust its range after awhile but usually I am long gone by the time that happens. I think they usually get a pretty good fix on me sometimes so its probably not bad AI TMA. In one occasion I was detected first by a helo on MAD which turned around after the ship fired to drop a torp neatly on my head (I guess he wanted to show the ship how it was done). Anyway, I dunno if this has been discussed before (I remember reading something about an ASROC fix... or was it SUBROCS?) or if it is even fixable but...

01-23-08, 11:49 AM	#13
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Well, the biggest limitation of the way the DW handles AI, is that it isn't possible for a platform to reference two other platforms relative to each other. In other words, if there is a distant target and a friendly or neutral in between, there is no way to say to the objective platform "don't fire on that target because there is a potential blue-on-blue". In DW, the AI going to fire, and the faith is that the automatic presets put on the weapon will prevent the friendly fire... obviously, this doesn't always happen. I've been thinking about how to get around this, but no luck so far... Another limitation is that the doctrine system appears to merely provide the AI platforms with "suggestions" on what they should do in terms of weapons use and how they handle contacts. Very few of the doctrine commands actually command the AI to do something directly... it's more like it puts the idea of doing it on their proverbial radar, and then the AI core in the NavalSimEngine determines if they are actually going to do it. I'd imagine the contract versions of DW have a much more reliable way of directing AI behavior... Cheers, David __________________ LW

01-23-08, 07:58 PM	#15
Sea Demon Ocean Warrior Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: USA Posts: 2,552 Downloads: 33 Uploads: 0	Thanks for the informative thread. When playing the FFG, I normally like to play it with hostile surface platforms on the prowl. And I normally am escorting an Arleigh Burke or Tico and I act as it's primary ASW escort, and let him handle most of the AAW/ASuW work. When doing this, one thing I hate about the AI in the AB or Tico is whenever my Helo promotes a hostile surface platform to the link, the AB or Tico will immediately unload 6-8 Harpoons, without a refined range solution. This will sometimes cause the Harpoons to miss it's intended platform as range and bearing have not been refined enough for an adequate solution. I wouldn't know how this could ever be fixed, but the TAO's of the AB's and Tico's have too much of an itchy trigger finger. Perhaps make them fire only when solution confidence is high???