Church of Scientology geting hit with a DDoS attack...

[SUBMAN1]

They seem to have some website issues going on!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01...y_controversy/

-S

[mrbeast]

Whats the phrase I'm looking for.........'What goes around comes around'? :hmm:

I can't say I approve of internet based assaults on anyone. But, considering the lengths that the Scientologists will go to shut up or discredit anyone who raises even the slightest criticism of it; I can't say I have much sympathy for them.

Remember the BBC reporter that lost his temper? Check out just some of the harrasment that the Church of Scientology put him through.



Can't say I blame him for getting angry.

[Skybird]

Exploit the breach, do maximum damage. Especially, destroy their banking accounts, and try to reveal confidental data. The higher the damage, the better. Prisoners not wanted. This strike has my unlimited sympathy. They do not want allowing you free speech and free thinking, so you do not owe them the possibility of their speech as well. They are at war with free society like we define it, so if you like that kind of society, you are at war with them - wether you like it or not.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

...They are at war with free society like we define it, so if you like that kind of society, you are at war with them - wether you like it or not.

Words of wisdom on the subject right there. Can't say it any better. Radical Islam could fall in here too on the same subject.

-S

[Redbrow]

I used to dream of ways to improve Islam and they all involved causing Islam to morph to something else. One of my pet theories (desires) was to drop a BFB (typical American glass pavement talk) on Mecca. Here is the device I longed for: a 25 megaton (50 would be best) dropped as a bunker buster - creating a whoper of a giant crater right where Mecca used to be. But that alone would not suffice to generate an evolution of Muslim thinking. No, the device I dreamed of would be wrapped in thick layers of really dirty materials, so the bomb would resemble a large box car. This would produce a really dirty device that would set the terrain around the holy crater to glowing for 25,000 years or more. (Pilgrimage to that...) Imagine praying toward that...

This would force a major rethink in Islam. But I gave up such maniacal day dreams when I realized something worse could happen - the Muslims could all end up morphing to Mormonism, or even worse to Christian theology! Besides, without Islam Europe would just end up worshipping some sort of Star Wars or Star Trek movie based religion. Without Islam Europe would just depolulate into a waste land of ruins and old people dragging around their latest Post Modernist Marvin the Robot philosophy. Nature abhors a vacuum, and since mankind IS designed to run around in some sort of wishful thinking daydream - nature wants to see to it that Islam becomes Europe and Europe becomes Islam. And being a philosophic savage myself - devoted to primitivism, and pagan faith - I think Islam should inherit Europe, before the last old lady there turns out the lights.



On this blow back theme, Islam's greatest threat is from all the Muslims that are moving to the USA. ANyone who knows America, knows that it takes fine cheezes from around the world and blows back veleeta! I warned my old Zen buddies back in the mid 70s that if Zen took off in America it would produce a fastfood McZen that would over time seep back across the Pacific Ocean to infect Asia. And this is indeed what happened and is happening. In time the result of Muslims moving in the USA will be to finally push their numbers here to a critical mass - and suddenly from their children and new converts an American version of Islam, McIslam, will blow back to the Middle East. In that day Islam will wish for the day when all America sent their way were ships, troops, and planes.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Redbrow

...or even worse to Christian theology!

That could be the best thing that happened to them. The US of A is founded on it, as is its morals and laws. That is if you are an American.

-S

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

That could be the best thing that happened to them. The US of A is founded on it, as is its morals and laws. That is if you are an American.

-S

So why the separation of church and state?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by mrbeast

So why the separation of church and state?

What does this have to do with the conversation? The seperation of church and state is not hard to figure out though if you think about it - Religious Freedom. When the two are together, they get back to a system as found in old England, the very reason people came here in the first place.

Both the Church of Scientology and Radical Islam want to take that religious freedom away from you - hence their war on Government in one form or another. It would be fine for them to suggest, but not to crush the ideas that gave them the power to exist in the first place.

-S

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

What does this have to do with the conversation? The seperation of church and state is not hard to figure out though if you think about it - Religious Freedom. When the two are together, they get back to a system as found in old England, the very reason people came here in the first place.

Both the Church of Scientology and Radical Islam want to take that religious freedom away from you - hence their war on Government in one form or another. It would be fine for them to suggest, but not to crush the ideas that gave them the power to exist in the first place.

-S

Well you seem to be suggesting that the USA is a Christian nation in the sense that Iran is an Islamic one. I know full well why there is a separation of Church and state in the US, I just wondered why a country founded on christianity would go to such lengths to remove its influence from the state.

As far as I can see your country and its laws are not founded on Christian theolgy.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

That could be the best thing that happened to them. The US of A is founded on it, as is its morals and laws. That is if you are an American.

-S

Yes and No. Christianity and especially the church to be a basis of America's founding was explicitly rejected back then, and has not been integral part of America. I lived by the same wrong thought myself too, though, until just weeks ago when some written comments on the issue made me stick my nose into history lessons and I learned that I was assuming totally wrong all the years. The formal Christian aspects like the formula "In God we trust" for example, as well as explicit religious formulations in vows and "one nation under one God" have been added by churchian lobbyism not before somewhere around the middle of the last century.

the treaty of Tripolis also often is given as a document of evidence that America "is not a christian country". during the negotiations witt he pirates in the Med, this was explicitly pointed out in speech and writing.

On a less formal and more general level though one must see of course that the European and American way of thinking, acting, seeing the world and life, and culture in general, without doubt has been massively influental on forming the cultural identity of europe, and america as well - for it were no culture-free people that boarded the Mayflower in 1620. And in good and in bad, Christianity and churches had their massive role to play in forming this european tradition: by forming it, or by seeing it getting formed in explicit resistence to Christian churches, what maybe even has proven to be far more impprtant just consider sciences, philosphy, enlightenment). Public life in america may be dominated by Christian values, but the formal structure of the state was designed not to be basing on Christian religion, or any religion at all. thus the state neither has the right to interfere with relgion, nor has relgion any right to instrumentalize religion for it's own purposes. Both have to stay separate.

Seen that way, the past decades went terribly wrong.

The strict separation of state and religion had light and shadow sides. On the one hand it helped tolerance and coexistence of different cults living side by side. On the other hand it did not prevent religious racism, the KuKluxKlan, and fanatism of the Christian rightwingers. On the one hand you can found any cult you want - on the other hand, things like suicidal sects, man-hurting psycho-cults and Scientology are considerted to be "religion" and are considered as off-limits for prevention and control. On the one hand you have, seen on a general, total scale, a basic attitude that in it's ideals wishes to respect other cultures and general mutual tolerance amongst mankind - on the other hand you see the religious right having secured solid beachheads in governmental and military institutions, bringing Christian fundamentalism into these institutions, and having been able to secure an alarming ammount of seats and offices throughout the federal and military structures. Their influence is growing, and is growing fast.

"All is in a state of flux" (Heraklit). and often, things (or nations) over time turn into exactly the oppopsite of what they wanted to be. And rules that were meant to secure that things stay as they were designed and wished to be - become the tools that implement the opposite that they were once meant to prevent.

[Redbrow]

I used to be a preacher and for 27 years was Christian (such as it exists in modern times, as it is almost nothing as it was before Rome become head roost). As an old Christian I was under COMMAND from Yahweh the War God to preach the word or face having the blood of the lost dripping from my soul. I too had a vast plexus of [it could have been this way]'s of sophistry to uphold the great dome of all the Biblical weak spots I was aware of that contradicted reality. (note that I still tend to capitalize Bible, as all preachers do) I even raised my own offspring on every known atheist argument aganist the 'B'ible and then some, since I had once been an atheist before my conversion. I did not come to the Faith ('F'aith) by way of being born into it or by way of simple emotional response - though in truth all converts are brought in by a leap of faith rather than mere logic. And having parents with a scientific back ground meant I had to construct a huge construct of excuses to explain away the weaknesses of the Bible - such as they were. My own children could out debate the atheists at their schools and as they entered college they were able to withstand the dogmas of the science professors with some ease. There were other more personal empirical evidences that helped me along this trail to holding on to the Faith that I won't mention here. But the upshot was that I could see no way I could ever lose my faith unless as I used to say: "A huge asteroid hit the earth and smashed it into two halves and as I spent my last 10 seconds seeing all this I might say, "Hmmm, I guess God's prophets were wong...."

But one day, not looking for anything against the Bible, I ran into an OT scripture that I had likely read scores of times. I was researching a medical question from the Bible's standpoint. Suddenly I saw it - the grand daddy of all Bible goof ups. And not only that - it was one that ALL atheists had never found and had always ignored. Even today on web sites - I find nothing about it. I spent 2 months researching the Hebrew, the Greek LXX, and every other book I could find and there was no question - this section of scripture was a Checkmate I could not get around (kind of like the poor Mormon DNA researchers who had to face the fact that genetic tests prove that the American Natives are in no way related to Semites.)

My faith was shattered and the vast dome of sophistry (which by the way I was always aware of, as I told my children, "ultimately I accept the Bible as true because I want it to be real, because a leap of faith was required, not circular logic") was falling in. I had studied geology and had been able to create my own version of excuses. But now all these fell in.

The end of all this was that I tried to show this deadly verse and its implications to other Christians. Each time a person saw it (and since it was really all about simple medical issue just about anyone above 21 years old could see and understand it) that person would within one day (about 24 hours max) lose their faith. It was a Christian killer. Could be a Jew killer too, since it was OT. One lady I told, later had to go on meds. Half of the people I mentioned this verse to ended up telling me years later that they had ended up feeling like a tree of leaves without branches or a trunk.

I realized about this time that mankind is not designed to live in objective reality. Man is a creature of the STORY, the myth, the CAUSE. This universe and its objective reality is like a caustic acid to the intellect of a super intelligent sentient being such as man. Only my old atheist Zen background and experience of Satori prevented me from caving in. Without a powerful story or cause most humans have to take pain killers, like Vodka, to dull the pain. One writer I liked stated that really it was inhumane to force an animal to live in this universe.

I stopped telling anyone else about this killer verse. Why should I? After all churches were like ice-chests, they weren't perfect but they tended to keep people from going totally rotten. Besides, I was no longer living under a LAW or the Mount or even the Law of Christ. Why should I go on a crusade to right the minds of people around me? Another question is, why do so many atheists feel the need to be on their crusade? has some deity told them he would hold them to account if they did not?

So if you are a Christian - I say stay one. "Its great for ME and OK for you." (A line adapted from the movie Judge Dread - let other readers understand).



PS
Chritianity is not an American religion. America does not own it nor did it create it. The NT was a creation of the Middle East and the Greek and Roman world, which shared few values with the USA. The American McReligion is really no different from my own beliefs now, since few if any church goers ever actually read the Bible and even fewer actually follow it. What they have is more like pagan religion and it tends to be: there is a Great Spirit, and he likes them personally and watches over them and answers prayer and most everyone, at least those the American individual might like or approve of, will go to a nice place called heaven. This is not NT. But it is fairly standard of a belief from ancient times from Asia to the American Indians.

[SUBMAN1]

Do we really need to rehash this again? I've already proved more than once that that US of A is founded of Christian principles. Search on it in the GT forums and you will once again find the same conclusion. Tired of Rehashing - it is getting old.

-S

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Do we really need to rehash this again? I've already proved more than once that that US of A is founded of Christian principles. Search on it in the GT forums and you will once again find the same conclusion. Tired of Rehashing - it is getting old.

-S

See Beer Thread:hmm:

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Do we really need to rehash this again? I've already proved more than once that that US of A is founded of Christian principles. Search on it in the GT forums and you will once again find the same conclusion.

Your conclusion.

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Do we really need to rehash this again? I've already proved more than once that that US of A is founded of Christian principles. Search on it in the GT forums and you will once again find the same conclusion. Tired of Rehashing - it is getting old.

-S

Your proof being?