Increasing crush depth to a theoritical value

[Ducimus]

There is a basic premise that US subs could dive deeper then their test depth. Which is fact. What is often hotly debated is just when they actually crushed. Most people seem to agree that it was deeper then what we think. Getting research on this, is really hard. Ive looked on the internet time, and time again (since my book collection is lacking ), and finding accounts of deeper then test depth dives is really hard.

I think the primary reason for this, was because from all accounts ive found, submarine captains in the US Navy were admonished for taking their boat below the rated depth. They had to show a pretty good reason for doing so, or they were reprimanded. It could very well be that a number of captains simply didnt record a deeper dive in their logbooks because of this, so they're isnt much of a record of them today.

One thing ive wanted to do for awhile, was have a plausible excuse for increasing sub crush depths beyond 20 to 30 feet. So unless someone can come up with some hard evidence of a historical account of the deepest sustained depth, i got an idea.

Generally speaking, a subs crush depth was 1.5 times its saftey depth. At least, 1.5 was the number the navy used by accounts. So for example:

250 test depth * 1.5 = 375
300 test depth * 1.5 = 450
350 test depth * 1.5 = 525

(these numbers look familiar to ya? They should )

So, id like to increase the crush depth to a theortical one, based on the premise that subs could go a bit deeper then what was typically recorded. But to increase this depth conservatively.

So, i have two ideas.

Idea A.)
Take the old crush depth, and multiply it by 10%.
375 * 0.1 = 37.5. + 375 = 412.5

Idea B.)
Take the saftey depth, and multiplly it by 1.6 instead of 1.5
250 * 1.6 = 400


Key to this idea, is modding the deep depth gauge on the orders bar to read in increments of up to 600 feet or so instead of 450 feet, which i think is quite possible as its been done before. Also i think using a test depth of 400 feet instead of 350 feet for the balao is probably more desirable.

Thoughts?

[donut]

I like idea (B)

[hyperion2206]

I just read page 479 of Clair's "Silent victory" and there it says:

"Another of Fife's replacements was Balao, a new boat commanded by Richard Henry Crane. Balao, built at Portsmouth, had a new superthick pressure hull. Her test depth was 400 feet, in extremis, she might survive at 800 feet."

So I guess in theory at least some boats could go way deeper then 600 feet.

[Fincuan]

An interesting story related to the subject: http://www.usschopper.com/Chopper%20...e%20Report.htm

[Ducimus]

If i cant get a depth gauge to work at 600 feet i might not bother. I think the value range of the depth gauge is F'ing hard coded. I can get one to work at 450 meters... which is 1470 feet, which is silly. You'd only use less then half of the total gauge.

The value of the depth gauge seems like its hardcoded, and then translated on a 1 to 1 basis. For example, the depth gauge is 450 feet. A few tweaks, and all of a sudden it sees it as 450 meters, but reads it off as feet. This value is defined somewhere, and i can't find it to change it. I think its hardcoded.

hope you find a way to make it work, it sounds like your numbers are right on target.

[Sailor Steve]

I saw a book at the library a few months ago about the history of submarines. For US subs the author took it for granted that the maximum depth was twice the test depth, not 1.5 times. On the other hand he provided no reference for that statement. I'll try to remember to get it out and post the title and author.

For SH3 I think it was TimeTraveller who made the wonderful crush depth randomizer mod. You would type in the crush depth (which he provided) and it would randomize it to be as much as 20% more and as much as 10% less that the listed depth, so you never really knew for sure.

Something like that for SH4 would be nice.

[tater]

I've seen figures of 900 ft for Balao someplace. Not that they ever went that deep on purpose.

There are two issues. There is the depth at which even the toughest skipper would have started sweating bullets, and there is the depth at which the sub would actually fail.

The problem in the game is that we have too much information. Assuming the hull % is gone, then by messing a little with the total hitpoints, at least having any damage at all can randomize the crush depth and keep players honest

I suppose you could set it closer to what we know might be the real depth for a crush---possibly over 1000ft for a Balao. Then we add a new campaign layer. Random_crush.mis. The contents? A pacific-wide minefield with mines scattered from 600 to 1200 feet deep

There be dragons!



tater

[Ducimus]

I dont see myself setting crush depth past 600 feet for a baloa honestly. Maybe a touch past that. Im still miffed at the depth gauge.

It just occured to me last night as i went to bed, that the value range for the depth gauge, is probably being defined when you say "metric" or "imperial" measurement in the game options. As a last experiment i removed all of the variables the defined the range of motion for the depth gauge, and it still works like it did before. Then there was this little "code" comment next to it that i was hoping meant that the metric/english conversion was done in code, not the range of motion for the depth gauge. Its probably both.

So i think were stuck with a 450 depth gauge. I hate thise for two reasons.

1.) The only way to go past that 450 ft mark is to use the D key for "dive planes set for normal dive"

2.) It makes impossible to use the saftey depth needle. I like that function because it levels the boat off at its saftey depth.

In an ideal world, i was picturing a 600 ft depth gauge where the red need stopped at 400 ft for a baloa, and then you could manually target which depth you wanted to go at from there, up to 600 or so feet. Shame the world isn't an ideal place.

edit: I could always use the huge mongo depth gauge, but its really silly. heres what it would look like

0 ft |---------------------------------600 ft----------------------------1270 ft|

Of course then the numbers would be rammed so close together, you'd need a magnfiying glass to look at the tick marks. In addition the crush depth red needle indicator, would still be stuck at its previous position, and would not be in scale with this gaugue.

[wovik]

Originally Posted by tater

I've seen figures of 900 ft for Balao someplace. Not that they ever went that deep on purpose.

tater

there is a reference to this possibility here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balao_class_submarine

you should also check the links given in the text for Test Depth.

[CaptainHaplo]

Tater - please dont do a pacific wide minefield! I hate to see what that would do to my framerates!!!! :rotfl:

As for using the "Huge Mongo" depth guage - cant someone just make one that doesnt go to 1200+ and just edit it so maybe its 0------------325------------750? I admit - doing such things it out of my realm of knowledge, but couldnt the guage just be changed, or does the game have to be linked to the guage to make it work right?

I am perfectly comfortable with the 1.5 crush depth - although one never knew. Even now the Virginia's are finding weld issues (the 3 Seawolf's had the same problems) - so the best would be a randomization - but thats not really doable with what we have right now as I understand it. 1.5 is a good starting place!

[beartooth91]

Based on my experience (USS Pintado SSN-672) and my WW2 Submarine book collection; I believe "collapse depth" to be the minimum depth at which you're in danger of losing the submarine. Its historically been specified to be 1.5 x Test Depth. On Pintado, "collapse depth" was listed as 1.5x test depth in the boat's manual.
Based on some of my books regarding WW2 fleet boats, I believe a true crush depth to be around 1.9x to 2x of the test depth.
The Silent Victory account of the Balao is data point #1.
There is another account, also in Silent Victory, of the USS Salmon losing depth control in the midst of a depth charge attack and dropping down to 500 ft before the crew regained control of the boat. She obviously survived, but, was leaking heavily during the ordeal.
In "Find 'Em, Chase 'Em, Sink 'Em" (a newer book about the USS Gudgeon - and the best researched WW2 submarine book I've ever read); the boat went too deep while evading an attack by a Q-ship on her 2nd war patrol in the East China Sea. The patrol report listed the max depth as 350 ft. Some of the crew members interviewed said the boat went as deep as 513 ft during this episode. Her skipper, Joe Grenfell, admitted - after the war - she reached 425 ft during this event. Whether it was 425 or 513, she was still seaworthy after the event with no flooding reported.
The account of the USS Chopper (a Balao or Tench) surviving 1011 ft is another data point.
During Tang's sea trials, O'Kane took her to 612 ft.
I need to find some data on some of the Gatos with regard to the deepest recorded - or admitted - dives.
Its pretty clear the 1.5x number is on the conservative side.
However, I know of no submarine intentionally exceeding the 1.5x number. Many of the skippers were afraid to even go near the 1.5x number. Fluckey's normal evade depth in Barb (a Gato), was 375 ft. I believe once, he may have taken her to 415 or 425 ft. My impressions are that he was afraid to push her much deeper than 375.

[Peto]

Submarine crush depths were influenced by what shipyard built the sub. Electric Boat made good boats and Cramp boats were a little iffy--not generally popular boats to serve on. The best for depth were probably built at Manitowoc because they used a unique (at the time) method of welding the pressure hull. They rotated the hull while welding which allowed the welders to always weld down. This created better uniform strength.

Deepest dives I know of (by class):

Old S = ~280 feet (not sustained--they brought it back up ASAP).
P Class: Pollock went to 500 feet in an out of control dive (bow estimated depth was 550 feet). Again--they didn't stay down there...

Salmon/Sargo: Don't remember the deepest depth I've read on these. Easily 350 though.

Gato: The Puffer went through a sustained (~31 hours) depth charge attack and they remained at 500 feet for much of the time. The Puffer was a Manitowoc boat.

Balao: Tang went to 700 feet. It wasn't on purpose and they brought it back up. But O'Kane typically took it to 500 feet.

After the war many subs were used as targets. I have heard and read that some of the Balaos went well past 800 feet before the final implosion of the pressure hull. None-the-less, I would bet that there was a lot of leaks and blown fittings before getting that deep.

What I'd like to see is a formula for SH4 sub crush depths that puts in a random variable:

CrushDepth = TestDepth * 1.3 + X.
X = 0 to .5 of the classes test depth.

Not knowing exactly how deep I can go would certainly influence my decision making :hmm:. I've never figured out how to do it though.

[Peto]

Brainstorming :hmm:

Would it be possible to:

1. Create 5 hull (crush depths) for a sub class
2. Place the congiguration in the eqp file much like a plane does for its weapon loadout? It can then choose one at random.

Not sure if that would work but I imagine someone here would know.

[tater]

Alternately, it would be possible (assuming the players don't go cheating and reading the files) to BP-clone each sub at least once and make them differ very slightly, including crush depth.

tater