could US subs dive/surface so fast?

Laffertytig · 12-10-07, 04:14 AM

ive noticed that compared with gwx in SH3 i can dive/surface a lot faster in SH4. also were US subs able to surface/dive when not moving like in SH4?

seaniam81 · 12-10-07, 04:47 AM

The american subs were pretty quick in getting under some reading I've done suggests around 30-50 seconds for a dive. My reading also suggests it took a lot longer to surface, mostly on perpose to stop hull poping. And yes a boat could dive and surface with out forward speed. It took a lot of compressed air and was noisy but it could be done.

mrbeast · 12-10-07, 08:26 AM

IIRC crews trained to crash dive in around 30 seconds, at least that was the target it also depended on the type of sub. Something big such as the USS Narwhal took longer and was one of the reasons why large cruiser type subs were abandoned in favour of fleet boat types.

mookiemookie · 12-10-07, 09:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaniam81

The american subs were pretty quick in getting under some reading I've done suggests around 30-50 seconds for a dive.

Everything I've read suggests this also.

Laffertytig · 12-10-07, 11:14 AM

yeah that would be for a sub runin at flank then doin a crash dive, not for a sub on the surface or at periscope depth at all stop. in SH4 u can go from periscope depth to 90 metres in 2 min then back up in 2 mins, just like an elevator!

the main reason skippers didnt wait to see the torps hiting was so that they had time to go deep. stayin at periscope to should be a risk but not so in SH4. i know in SH3 the major mods all fixed this to more realistic levels so that it took more time to dive and surface but it look like noone has done this sith SH4 yet.

i would do it myself if i knew what files to change, anyone got any ideas?

Wilcke · 12-10-07, 12:45 PM

This is an interesting topic, I suppose that since mechanically the sub can come to periscope depth so quickly without the "noise" and alerting the escorts, one could just do it a bit slower and hold at various depths instead of just hitting the old "P" button.

When using the Trigger Maru mod its bit more realistic in that once your torpedoes are on their way its best to just go deep evade and plan a reattack for a couple of hours later from a new position.

Would be cool if one could implement the "hull plate popping" and have the escorts key in on that. There is always something to work on.

Ducimus · 12-10-07, 05:10 PM

My reading leaves me to believe that 30-35 seconds was the goal, with 40ish being the average.

Powerthighs · 12-10-07, 11:27 PM

An interesting tidbit I just read in Submarine! (page 14) by Ned Beach:

"Trigger, in common with her sisters, always 'hangs' on a dive at about thirty-five feet. ... Will she ever break through? ... Forty feet. She's going under at last. Fifty feet. We're under!"

Just wondering if this hesitation is modeled (I'm guessing no) or if anyone has heard of it before.

Laffertytig · 12-11-07, 03:14 AM

yeah ducimus for crash dives at fast speed, not at all stop! the reason why this is really obvious in SH4 is the vast majority of attacks are made from periscope depth at very slow speed because i can never seem to get close enough on the surface.

the 1st thought should be to get as deep as possible but currently u dont have to worry bout that as u can get down to 90 metres in 120 seconds which defo aint right. im surprised that RFB hasnt altered this as it goes for realism, has TM made any changes to this?

i guess i could just restrict how fast i dive but sureyl there must be a way to fix this. ive just been playin GWX 2.0 and they have it spot on, it takes a lot longer to dive and surface (not crash dive)

seaniam81 · 12-11-07, 03:26 AM

IIRC TM did change the dive speeds for a crash dive from flank and from standing still.

Laffertytig · 12-11-07, 09:26 AM

well he has then thats another reason to try TM then although RFB is still doin the business for now.
ive found out what file i need to mod so if anyone has any info on how fast a US sub could surface/dive at very slow speeds that would be great

swdw · 12-11-07, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seaniam81

IIRC TM did change the dive speeds for a crash dive from flank and from standing still.

True, but as mentioned earlier, the dive times in TM are even faster than the ones in RFB which is the opposite of what Laffertytig is looking for.

And BTW Lafferty, if you read the earlier post you'll see why this isn't fixed in RFB yet. till looking where to make the needed changes.

scrag · 12-11-07, 03:07 PM

US Boats in the Pacific AOR dived slower than there German counterparts in the Atlantic - one reason for this was the better radar and much longer distances in the PAC Vs. LANT. Consider that the Germans were faced with a massive Air ASW threat which forced them to dive faster or to eventually design a boat that was better submerged than surfaced (the 21 class). The game(s) reflect this pretty well. Even at Flank it takes a while to get down. Referencing Ned Beach's issue we still experience problems at times - particularly coming to PD and passing a layer. A temperature gradiant can add or subtract thousands of pound of weight which can cause a "stall" and have the ship stuck at a less than optimum depth. Might be a real pain in the but to model that and frankly probably not worth the time or required processing.

Ducimus · 12-11-07, 04:37 PM

A "dry" crash dive in TM, being on the surface at around 8-9 kts, takes anywhere between 43 to 47 seconds, depending on boat type.

Laffertytig · 12-12-07, 07:26 AM

thats all good and well but from all stop (or for arguments sake PD) to 90 metres it takes around 2 mins which is ridiculous. im talkin about RFB and vanilla here and someone said your mod if even faster than this.

Ducimus, if your mod does sive faster than vanilla id be very interested to know what setting u changed and by how much to increase the dive speed.

12-10-07, 04:14 AM	#1
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	could US subs dive/surface so fast? ive noticed that compared with gwx in SH3 i can dive/surface a lot faster in SH4. also were US subs able to surface/dive when not moving like in SH4?

12-10-07, 04:47 AM	#2
seaniam81 Commodore Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 624 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	The american subs were pretty quick in getting under some reading I've done suggests around 30-50 seconds for a dive. My reading also suggests it took a lot longer to surface, mostly on perpose to stop hull poping. And yes a boat could dive and surface with out forward speed. It took a lot of compressed air and was noisy but it could be done. __________________ Ultima ratio regum. (The final argument of kings) - Inscription on french cannons, on order of Louis XIV

12-10-07, 08:26 AM	#3
mrbeast Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Bolton, UK Posts: 1,236 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	IIRC crews trained to crash dive in around 30 seconds, at least that was the target it also depended on the type of sub. Something big such as the USS Narwhal took longer and was one of the reasons why large cruiser type subs were abandoned in favour of fleet boat types. __________________

12-10-07, 12:45 PM	#6
Wilcke The Old Man Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 1,441 Downloads: 234 Uploads: 0	This is an interesting topic, I suppose that since mechanically the sub can come to periscope depth so quickly without the "noise" and alerting the escorts, one could just do it a bit slower and hold at various depths instead of just hitting the old "P" button. When using the Trigger Maru mod its bit more realistic in that once your torpedoes are on their way its best to just go deep evade and plan a reattack for a couple of hours later from a new position. Would be cool if one could implement the "hull plate popping" and have the escorts key in on that. There is always something to work on. __________________ Wilcke **For the best in Fleet Boats go to: Submarine Sim Central. http://forum.kickinbak.com/index.php Check out: A Brief Introduction to the Pacific Submarine War by Ducimus http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=128185 Operation Monsun plus OMEGU, the #1 ATO Solution for SH4! Signature Art by Gunfighter**

12-11-07, 03:26 AM	#10
seaniam81 Commodore Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 624 Downloads: 87 Uploads: 0	IIRC TM did change the dive speeds for a crash dive from flank and from standing still. __________________ Ultima ratio regum. (The final argument of kings) - Inscription on french cannons, on order of Louis XIV

12-10-07, 11:14 AM	#5
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	yeah that would be for a sub runin at flank then doin a crash dive, not for a sub on the surface or at periscope depth at all stop. in SH4 u can go from periscope depth to 90 metres in 2 min then back up in 2 mins, just like an elevator! the main reason skippers didnt wait to see the torps hiting was so that they had time to go deep. stayin at periscope to should be a risk but not so in SH4. i know in SH3 the major mods all fixed this to more realistic levels so that it took more time to dive and surface but it look like noone has done this sith SH4 yet. i would do it myself if i knew what files to change, anyone got any ideas?

12-10-07, 05:10 PM	#7
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	My reading leaves me to believe that 30-35 seconds was the goal, with 40ish being the average.

12-10-07, 11:27 PM	#8
Powerthighs Beach Leaf Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Seattle, WA Posts: 287 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	An interesting tidbit I just read in Submarine! (page 14) by Ned Beach: "Trigger, in common with her sisters, always 'hangs' on a dive at about thirty-five feet. ... Will she ever break through? ... Forty feet. She's going under at last. Fifty feet. We're under!" Just wondering if this hesitation is modeled (I'm guessing no) or if anyone has heard of it before.

12-11-07, 03:14 AM	#9
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	yeah ducimus for crash dives at fast speed, not at all stop! the reason why this is really obvious in SH4 is the vast majority of attacks are made from periscope depth at very slow speed because i can never seem to get close enough on the surface. the 1st thought should be to get as deep as possible but currently u dont have to worry bout that as u can get down to 90 metres in 120 seconds which defo aint right. im surprised that RFB hasnt altered this as it goes for realism, has TM made any changes to this? i guess i could just restrict how fast i dive but sureyl there must be a way to fix this. ive just been playin GWX 2.0 and they have it spot on, it takes a lot longer to dive and surface (not crash dive)

12-11-07, 09:26 AM	#11
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	well he has then thats another reason to try TM then although RFB is still doin the business for now. ive found out what file i need to mod so if anyone has any info on how fast a US sub could surface/dive at very slow speeds that would be great

12-11-07, 03:07 PM	#13
scrag Medic Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Pearl Harbor, Hawaii Posts: 161 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Dive Times Reality US Boats in the Pacific AOR dived slower than there German counterparts in the Atlantic - one reason for this was the better radar and much longer distances in the PAC Vs. LANT. Consider that the Germans were faced with a massive Air ASW threat which forced them to dive faster or to eventually design a boat that was better submerged than surfaced (the 21 class). The game(s) reflect this pretty well. Even at Flank it takes a while to get down. Referencing Ned Beach's issue we still experience problems at times - particularly coming to PD and passing a layer. A temperature gradiant can add or subtract thousands of pound of weight which can cause a "stall" and have the ship stuck at a less than optimum depth. Might be a real pain in the but to model that and frankly probably not worth the time or required processing. __________________

12-11-07, 04:37 PM	#14
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	A "dry" crash dive in TM, being on the surface at around 8-9 kts, takes anywhere between 43 to 47 seconds, depending on boat type.

12-12-07, 07:26 AM	#15
Laffertytig Grey Wolf Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 757 Downloads: 110 Uploads: 0	thats all good and well but from all stop (or for arguments sake PD) to 90 metres it takes around 2 mins which is ridiculous. im talkin about RFB and vanilla here and someone said your mod if even faster than this. Ducimus, if your mod does sive faster than vanilla id be very interested to know what setting u changed and by how much to increase the dive speed.