New drive in Germany to ban scientology

[Skybird]

http://www.faz.net/s/Rub594835B67271...~Scontent.html

For the first time ever, all 17 interior ministers in Germany have reached consensus on the latest reports by the interior intelligence service for the protection of the constitution (BVS), that the findings leave no other choice than to understand scientology as an organization whose goals are threatening the constitution and are incompatible with the goals and values of the constitution, and they agreed to work together to get it banned nationwide next year. This solid front from all parties and federal states is a first, so far we had single federal states ruling like this, but never no national unity.

In the past, courts in Germany have repeatedly came to the same conclusion, and refused to accept Scientology's claim to be a religion and therefore rejected it's demand to be seen as "allgemeinnützig" (in the common wellfare?) , which would have meant massive tax cuts for the organisation. In the leatest court-ruling, a court in cologne has found that Scientology is violating the principle of a free democratic basic order, and is violating several basic rights and human rights as well, especially the consitutional guarantee of human dignity, and the constitutional guarantee for free realisation of one's own personality. It also aims, says the court, at a social order without free elections.

scientology currently runs 10 major centres in german metropoles, the european HQ in Berlin, and 14 addional smaller centres throughout gemany. Their last headlines were from children of leading personnel fleeing the sect and asking the state for refuge and protection against their parents who still are in the sect. According to internal scientology information the German Verfassungsschutz got its hands on, the sect is following a plan for massive expansion throughout all Europe, with germany being seen as the key battlefield to break resistance to it. Internal papers are also quoted by saying that scientology sees it as essential to reach the highest ranks in the German government, effectively infiltrating it with it's ideas.

For historicla reason, no other nation in europe has such a high responsibility not to tolerate inhumane ideologies and totalitarian ideas in general, and so germany must accept to become a forerunner to finally kick this criminal business corporation and psycho-sect out. conflicts with the EU are preprogrammed, for here scientology's propaganda already was successful in marking some anchors. It seems that even the government is willing to accept these confrontations, and eventually even ignore the EU on it. The percpetion becomes dominant, that the organisation's activiities are a thread to the state, and it's constitutional order.

The German developement is monitored by several nations in europe who also have tried or wish to ban scientology, and have had according courtruling that decide that scientology is no religion, but a man-abusing sect and profit-oriented business-organisation.

I hope it works this time. sects like these are a disgrace, and to tolerate them is a crime, for they bring human beings into dependance, misery, suffering, and abuse, and very massively so - up to serious psychological breakdowns, depression, psychosis, even suicide. All in the name of the real deity they serve: financial profit. They compare to the Mafia.

This is not about freedom of religion. It is about organised crime.

[SUBMAN1]

They are worse than the Mafia. Don't give them so much credit.

-S

In October, a Spanish court ruled that the Church of Scientology of Spain should be re-entered into the country's register of officially recognised religions.

Looks like the Germans are lining up to persecute another religion. Nothing new for them.

6000 members doesn't seem like very many. This arguement that they are taking money is not a very good one for Germany. Isn't that the arguement they used about the Jews before they killed six million of them? Some folks never learn.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by waste gate

Some folks never learn.

The air here is thick with irony....

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The air here is thick with irony....

NEON looks in his own closet and decides to sneak quietly away.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The air here is thick with irony....

Well, banning the Nazi party NPD failed some years back, due to technical reasons - when the thing was at the constitutional court to decide on it, the BVS had to admit that the NPD was infiltrated with BVS agents supplying info. The court said that thus it canot be ruled out the NPD was manipulated by the BVS to give a certain appearance, and let the case fall in accordance with the laws. Of course everyone knew - the court, too - that that was nonsense, but the principles of the law and the authorities not having had any chance to manipulate the case must be followed, even when it is the NPD. Since then, everybody is shy to try it again, and earn a second defeat. They try now to block their financial supplies.

By German laws, with scientotlogy it could be easier, since it is a foreign orgnisation being run and controlled from a foreign nation, and for this fact, slightly different laws and procedures apply. Preparations will take until next autumn. they say the chan ces for succeeding to get these gangster being banned form Germany are 50:50, or slightly better. but it is no certainty.

Interestingly, speakers for scientology are alreading spitting poison and gall, and marked some comments that revealed an impressive ammount of hate for free thinking and free societies, and the disgust they feel for principles of elementary humanism and democracy when comparing the decision of the ministres to the history of the Holocaust of the Nazis. Well, it is the right faction making such statements, isn't it. they are so aggressive that they made these comments without thinking first how much damage they do to themselves by that.

Rats.

[AntEater]

I disagree with Skybird on this:
While I'm not a fan of Scientology, you cannot battle them on ideological grounds.
They couldn't even get the NPD banned, and with chances of 50-50, no one will risk losing.
Why don't we do it like Greece and shut them down for tax evasion or something. It would suprise me if such a huge venture didn't evade taxes once in a while.
Also, while scientology is a moronic, totalitarian cult, so are most religions, and at least they do aim for people who should decide for themselves, like laywers, managers and the likes.
I know that most german law firms actually have anti-scientology clauses in their work contracts, simply because scientologists are a bit unnerving to their co workers with their endless recruiting attempts.
Also, I don't see the problem: at least in Germany we're not in a time for cults, today the cult is money, and I suppose many people who do join Scientology do so for contacts and career advancement, not for spiritual enlightenment.
Maybe the US is different, with radical evanglicals and such.
The 80s were different here, when everybody and his dog was looking for "self-finding" and meditation and stuff and young people looked for something to believe in, joing Bhuddists and Osho and god knows what kind of cults (some even became muslims!).
Today, youth is simply is after money, sex and drugs, not spiritualism.

Scientology is a nuisance, but nothing one can prevent with ideological laws.
Also, compared with radical islam and doomsday evanglicals in the US, "operating Thetans", the god Xenu, John Travolta and Tom Cruise hopping on sofas seem quite harmless...

[Chock]

I'm kind of hoping that Xenu escapes from his prison and comes back to Earth, then we could all join together and have a proper War on Terror. Just make sure you watch out in case you live near any volcanoes. There is one small fly in the ointment for Xenu, which is probably why he hasn't returned yet - since you can't get spares for Douglas DC-8s anymore, does he go with the Airbus A380, or the Boeing 747-400?

Anyway, I'm off now to audit some of my Body Thetans (TM) :rotfl:

A message from Xenu:

Chock

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by AntEater

I disagree with Skybird on this:
While I'm not a fan of Scientology, you cannot battle them on ideological grounds.

The interior ministres or the Verfassungsschutz do not battle it on ideological grounds. The violation of the constitution and the thread to it's goals are exemplary, and a solid, clear defined crime. If a rapist kidnapps somebody and holds her in a cellar for days, and the person chnages her psychological behavior, than this also does not get disucssed on ideological grounds, but is described as a crime, that simple. we do not need to debate with them on ideology - the intel services have privided and are told to provide even more facts abiut deeds they coimited, and their activities within society - and on the grounds of these deeds it will be decided if they are compatible with the constitution or not.

But that is not important for me. To get rid of them, no matter how - that is what I am after. an if that is possible by sueing them overt tax fraud or soemthing else, okay with me. Hauptsache weg mit ihnen, jetzt und für immer.

You said "also, while scientology is a moronic, totalitarian cult, so are most religions", by that you express you accept them to be a religion. that is your personal opinion then, but the courts so far have seen it differently. Scientotlogy is not a relgion, and thus oyu must not compare it to other relgions. It is a profit-oriented enterprise with covers it's totalitariansim and abusing of people with religiosity. but that does not make it a religion. so why comparing it to religion, and helping their defense by that? that is what they want: to be seen as a religion, so that they can claim the constitution's protection for free religion, and can claim massive tax relief. they are not more a religion than the stories around Middleearth are a religion.

You aid "Also, I don't see the problem: at least in Germany we're not in a time for cults, today the cult is money, and I suppose many people who do join Scientology do so for contacts and career advancement, not for spiritual enlightenment." - As I quoted material gotten by the Verfassungsschutz , the intelligence service obviously sees it totally different than you.

Cults, you said. Clever scientology today hides the cult, and approaches people on terms of being a normal initiative caing for the communal wellbeing. And only slowly and secretly, people get lured deeper into the system, at some time becoking object of attempts to lead them into psychological dependency where they still think they allow that by their free will. It is a longer operation. And only sometimes, even force and violance is used, but not before the organization is sure that the indiovidual already is that weakned and dependant that it still would not dare to leave. Meanwhile, those who leave, or attack and criticise the organisation, get thtreatened, become subject of campaigns of character assassination, get bombared with suings at court, and get blackmailed by threatening family members, and scaring friends that want to help and try to brake the vicitims isolation. Classical wolf pack tactics.

Also, from social working and education sector i must tell you that you oversee a lot of their threats: in the past two years they have tried to hide behind facades of non-ideological offices that provide additonal school trainign for weak students, not being perceived as Scientology, and by that being able to indoctrinate their ideas into children's mind more subtle, and even raising public sympathy for being "socially engaged". If you can't see the thread here, i cannot help you. Scientology is about destroying the constitutional order and the free democratic system, and replace it with it's own ideology. That is best accieved by infiltrating peoples mind when they are very young and can be easily influenced (thats why all sects are so greedy to get children of members under their control, oir to infiltrate the thinking of decision makers (politicians), or people of public life that serve in a role of public idols (stars). They poush for seizing key positions that alolow them despite their small numbers to influence policy, education, economy, and form the total system to meet their goals.

That hardly can be taken easily. Scientology in Germany has constantly grown in the past 30+ years, and has seen a jump in spreading 2-3 years ago. This was only possible because of many people have an opinion about them like you - not taking them serious, minimizing their determination and threat potential. as a result, they grew. That minimal their influence is.

Especially we in Germany should know it better, and should show a tougher determination when facing such an enemy. Our constitution was designed by German'S will as well as by Allied pressure to make it impossible that totalitarianism and centralized state control every grabs hold in germany again. what does violate basic principles of the constitution, cannot be tolerated, therefore. And seing it by the ideals themselves as expressed in that constitution, I agree with it on that level, too.

Hopping John Travolats and Tom Cruises seem to have been successful nevertheless to lower at least your deflector shield. that's why they were sent over, or what else have you thought? They give it a friendly, respectable face. And with some people, they score.

[AntEater]

Remember, we're not talking criminal proceedings here:
This is not the NPD trial.
Legally, Scientology is a rechtsfähiger eingetragener Verein (roughly, a registered association with legal personality), not a political party.
For them, the Vereinsgesetz (association law) applies. Before 911, religions were exempted from the possibility of banning under the association law, but afterwards this was changed.
The NPD trial took place before the constitutional court BEFORE the party was banned. The party was accused and acquitted.
The trial won't be the start, only the consequence. The state where Scientology is registered can simply ban them, but Scientology can sue the state to have the ban revoked and the ban will be suspended for the duration of legal proceedings.
But the trial will be a Verwaltungsprozess (administrative trial), last instance being the Bundesverwaltungsgericht in Leipzig.
According to and § 3 Vereinsgesetz and Article 9 II of the Constitution, a Verein can be banned for if their "purpose and activities run contrary to criminal laws" or the purpose of the club is subvert the constitution or the principle of international peace and understandig. The formula is purpose tailored against nazis, obviously.
It will be a hard thing to prove Scientology actually violates those principles. Keep in mind that personal constitutional rights are can be violated with permission, except for life itself and a minimum of human dignity.
If Scientology has prisons and can prove their "believers" (whatever) entered them volutarily, it is not criminal or unconstitutional, just plain weird.
In dubio pro reo applies to Scientology as well, sadly.

I daresay the risk of failure is too high and the NPD verdict set a precedent regarding the use of moles in such organisations, so any HUMINT might just as well compromise the process.

(Dang it is quite complicated to write german legal matters in english)

[Skybird]

Ant,

I am no lawyer. While I was aware of the Vereinsgesetzt and the implications as it was explained yesterday evening on TV, remember that the foucs currently is on scientology being a threat to the constitution, and being incompatible with it - this is the focus of the effort getting started now. The Verfassungsschutz has been told to exaimne them even further, and on TV one interior minstre said clearly they want them getting banned for violation of the constitution. As far as I am aware, suing them on the basis of such a claim overrules technical reasons being provided by the Vereinsgesetz.

"The NPD trial took place before the constitutional court BEFORE the party was banned."

But they were not banned...! It failed for a technical reason - V-Männer having infiltrated them, so the court took the case down, and had no other option than that.

It was also suggested to use art. 5 paragraph 2 GG against them, where it is ruled that the certain constitutional right can be limited if they are used to violate cirminal laws, laws that protect the youth, and the marriage. I personally would also argue in favour of 5-3.

and finally this: GG art 9 (1,2):

1. All Germans have the right to form associations and societies.
2. Associations, the objects or activities of which conflict with the criminal laws or which are directed against the constitutional order or the concept of international understanding, are prohibited.

Since there are many examples of violations of criminal laws, as well as the anti-constitutional nature of Scientology is politically no longer in doubt, and is provided eveidence for in written internal docoments of Scientology, you do not need to try suing them on the basis of the Vereinsgesetz. and here you also find the reason why they say they want to ban scientology in the basis of it violating the constitution.

They did not say it, but I also remind of

Article 18 (Forfeiture of basic rights).
Whoever abuses freedom of opinion, in particular freedom of the press (Article 5, paragraph 1) freedom of teaching (Article 5, paragraph 3), freedom of assembly (Article 8), freedom of association (Article 9), the secrecy of mail posts and telecommunications (Article 10), property (Article 14), or the right of asylum (Article 16, paragraph 2) in order to attack the free democratic basic order, forfeits these basic rights. The forfeiture and its extent are pronounced by the Federal Constitutional Court.

and finally, article 20, 4 GG:

All Germans shall have the right to resist any person seeking to abolish this constitutional order, should no other remedy be possible. (inserted 24 June 1968)

Hard to use that in suing Scientotlogy, but it clearly illustrates the spriit the constitution is breathing concerning attempts to destroy it. where the violation of the constitution got recognized, there it must be possible to bring such an attack to a legal stop, and force the attacker back.

So again, the attempt, as reported yesterday, is not founded on intricacies of the vereinsgesetz, but Scientologie's record of braking criminal laws, and violating the constitution.

It therefore will depend on wether you can proove at court that anti-constitutional acting and intending, or not. and it seems, there is some political optimism now that they have enough to dare to try it.

[AntEater]

I'm no laywer as well, but with luck I soon will be

With BEFORE I meant that a party banning procedure is like a criminal trial with the result (ban or no ban) at the end, while banning an association under Vereinsrecht is a simple administrative procedure which can be cancelled afterwards, by a Nichtigkeitsklage (nullifying action) against the governmental agency who issued the ban.
The problem with the constitution and legal practice is that the constitution is mostly a piece of paper. Certainly, everybody quotes it, but in practice, common law is more important in interpreting the statutes. Only when you run out of precedents, you use the constitution.
And regarding the anti-constitutional nature of scientology. First "politically no more in doubt" is something totally different than "legally proven", as I said, in dubio pro reo applies here, sadly.
Second, german common law regarding anti-constitutional behaviour state that simple anticonstitutional ideology is not sufficient for a ban.
There has to be an "aggressiv-kämpferische Grundhaltung" (aggressive basic attitude), in regards to how the association/party tries to attain its goals.
If for simple anticonstitutionalism, monarchist parties would be banned for violating the republican principle in Art. 20 III, but since they're nothing more than nostalgia clubs and not actively trying to bring the Hohenzollerns back via a military coup, they are allowed (and of course because they're small and harmless ).

So of the three reasons to be banned:
Anticonstitutionalism (-) the agressiveness is basically missing. That is exactly what went wrong in the NPD trial. The defence successfully argued that it was the Verfassungsschutz moles who had instigated that agressive spirit. And since HUMINT is about the only way to prove such aggressiveness, the defence could claim the same here if BvV has moles in Scientology and discredit their testimony.
Anti-Peaceful coexistens (-) this only applies to neo nazis and the likes
Instigating criminal behaviour:
That is the interesting part. It really all comes down to consent. If the state can find witnesses subjected to anything they did not consent to, Scientology could be in trouble.
Problem is, consent can be far reaching, as I said, almost anything except your life and your basic human dignity (Article 1 constitution) can be consented away, at least among private parties. So if they sent somebody into a torture camp and can prove he consented to it, they can actually get away with it within certain limits.

Anyway, the chase is simply not strong enough, so I don't think it would be prudent to ban them.
The political ramifications of failure far outweigh the potential gain.
Especially since every failed ban makes that weapon more blunt. You see that in the whole business with neo nazi demonstrations. Every time they announce a demonstration, they get banned, they go to the court with a list of precedents as long as the courtroom and get it allowed, adding another precedent to that list.

[Letum]

Talking about cults, what to you make of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) SkyBird?
are they in Germany a lot?

I notice German Bhuddists have given them the cold shoulder. Quite right too.

I was invited to the local NKT center a few years back, but I'm dammed if I will have
anything to with Shugden supporters, least of all the NKT.

Thugs, murderes, empire-builders, dogmatic, else just fools that follow; all in sheep's
clothing or with sheep-brains.

[Skybird]

AntEater,

"There has to be an "aggressiv-kämpferische Grundhaltung" (aggressive basic attitude), in regards to how the association/party tries to attain its goals."

And that is not the case with Scientology?! Of course it is. They are actively engaged in infiltrating economy at leadershiplevels, political structures at decison-making level, public education sector at teaching level. If that is not aggressiveness, than I do not understand what the term means (ad greddi, if my latin is not totally failing: "an etwas herantreten, sich auf etwas zubewegen"). Agressiveness is more than just physical violence (which they also practice in that meant when they limit the freedom of movement of members, and keep them in enforced isolation).

"Especially since every failed ban makes that weapon more blunt. "

That is a risk indeed. But why is not to use the weapon in an effort any better? trying it after good preparation is a chance. not trying at all leaves you chanceless and defeated.

the NPD case did not fall for weak arguments and evidence, but for technical reasons - exclusively. I agree though that the case needs good preparartion. that may be the reason why the interior ministers said they have ordered the Verfassungsschutz to collect further evidence until autumn next year. However, they already seem to have enbiugh material to make a unified public statement like they did, and also in the past there has been enough material to convince several courts in Germany and europe as well to decide agaimst scientology in many cases on basis of criminal laws, economical laws, and institutional laws, and also decide against Scientology's request to be considered as a religious community. If the informational basis and staus of evidence would have been so weak in all these cases, these colurt ruling hardly would have been possible. So: "some more courage, comrades"!

The problem I see is another one: the Eu interfering on behalf of Scientology, since Scientology was able to secure some support on it's status in recent years by massive lobby work at the EU, and winning a courtcase at the EU court. I know that nations today often vilate their own conszoitutions in taking over EU demands unconditionally and pressing them through parliaments unchecked and undebated, but that is no legal argument why not to rsist such pressures from the EU, but also illustrates the failure of national governments. If in 12 or 18 months the German government still will have the will to accept confrontation with the EU - that is they question mark that I see looming at the horizon. tradtionally germany defends it's interests at the EU very hesitently and passively, where others are pressing for these far more aggressively. A strategical deficit of the Germans that really could ruin this case.

Concerning what you said aboiut the importance of the costitution in lawmaking and and courts:


Article 31 GGFederal law overrides Land law.


Article 28 - 1. The constitutional order in the Laender must conform to the principles of republican, democratic, and social government based on the rule of law, within the meaning of this Basic Law. (...)

- 3. The Federation guarantees that the constitutional order of the Laender conforms to the basic rights and to the provisions of paragraphs (1) and (2).
You say that usually the constitution does not play a role in courts, in the meaning of precedences and specialised (but nevertheless sub-ordinated!) laws from the Strafgesetz, for example, are given more attentiuon. But maybe that is just a bad habit!? The constitution is very clear about federal laws needing to obey the constitution, and federal law braking Länder law, and Länder constitutions are needing to obey the Grundgesetz. So, the constitution does not say that it must be accepted that a court proceeding violating basic principles of the federal constitution - is intended, or must be tolerated. In other words: if proceedings distance themselves too far from the constitution - who say that in that case you cannot prerss much harder to come to that ground of the constitution again? In more lush language: pea counting may be nice and fine, but it surely does not set the constitgution out of effect - you can push for the constitution being seen as the basis for any specilaised laws being used. Eventually (and in this case: ironically) you can even go to the EU court and can file a case against Germany if a german court refuses to accept the dominance of german's constititution over specialised laws, since that would mean the the above quoted articles of the constitution are not followed. -This information is not my personal assessement, but the assessement by a lawyer for Verwaltungs- und Staatsrecht whom I occasionally deal with, since his brother, our house lawyer, and me are loose friends, and in very different contexts we talked aboiut these things: the meaning of the constitution and in how far it is the basis at courts, and can be sued for at international courts.

Probably there is possible counterargument, but that is to be expected. If there would not be differing interpretations, we would not need neither lawyer nor attorneys - only judges.

In any way, we have far too many laws and "Verwaltungsvorschriften" in gemrany, and in the West in general. "cut the sh!t by at least three quarters", the same man once said. - What should I say? Agreed!

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Letum

Talking about cults, what to you make of the New Kadampa Tradition (NKT) SkyBird?
are they in Germany a lot?

I notice German Bhuddists have given them the cold shoulder. Quite right too.

I was invited to the local NKT center a few years back, but I'm dammed if I will have
anything to with Shugden supporters, least of all the NKT.

Thugs, murderes, empire-builders, dogmatic, else just fools that follow; all in sheep's
clothing or with sheep-brains.

I must confess i am totally innocent concerning any knowledge of these two. Never heared of them. What are they?