Depth Charge Lethality Poll

[tater]

Hard data about this is very hard to com by. All the various navies seemed to think that a 300lb DC would be lethal within an average of about 6 meters. They don't list the depth, however.

That means a single DC within that range will kill a sub, or force it to the surface.

Current DCs are no where near that effective. Not even close at 6m. You can have them go off in contact, or actually inside the sub and it won't kill the boat for sure. I did a lot of testing on this, and single DC kills are virtually impossible.

So, the questions...

First, in the case of depth charges detonating close enough that the explosion graphic overlaps the hull (2-3m), should a single DC on an undamage sub be:

1. Certainly fatal.
2. Almost Certainly fatal (75%+).
3. Probably fatal (51%+).
4. Possibly fatal (10-50%).
5. Rarely fatal (<10%).
6. Never fatal.

Second, in the case of the 6m radius mentioned, should a single DC on an undamaged sub be:

A. Certainly fatal.
B. Almost Certainly fatal.
C. Probably fatal.
D. Possibly fatal.
E. Rarely fatal.
F. Never fatal.

FATAL means the either an instant spinning death screen, damage that REQUIRES blowing tanks to surface, or a mission kill (no more engines, props, fuel, etc).


My personal answers would be: 2 and D, given no good source to prove it otherwise. I tend to think it might more realistically be 1 and C, however. The current game (stock) is 4 and F, as a comparison (with any mod that doesn't up DC EF values or radii—so stock, rfb, and TM are here).

tater

[Reaves]

I'd say 3 and D but 2 and D would be better then stock.


I wouldn't want the game to be too hard if you know what I mean.

[tater]

Well, when I finally dial stuff in, I might make a couple versions available. An overall mod to the dat/sim/eqp files for the ships that all use, and a couple versions of the zon with different EF values etc. Just curious what people think so I know how to dial 'em in.

I should add the caveat that single DCs WILL kill you right now if they are in virtual contact (inside MinRadius) and the boat is DEEP. Then it will domino since the boat will instantly be below crush depth. For this I am assuming only moderate depth, perhaps 40-50m (IJN claimed a single 250kg GP bomb turned DC would kill a sub---about equal to their 162kg warhead type 2, maybe less cause bombs have more jacket, less explosive than DCs).

[CCIP]

Personally, what I really miss a lot of times is a chance to die slowly. I've no objection to direct or near-direct hits being very deadly, but I'd prefer it'd end with my boat flooding uncontrollably while I try to blow ballast and lose the battle than just having the control taken away instantly and the boat plunging down. :hmm:

At distance, I'd like minor compartmental damage to be a bit more frequent.

[Reaves]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Personally, what I really miss a lot of times is a chance to die slowly. I've no objection to direct or near-direct hits being very deadly, but I'd prefer it'd end with my boat flooding uncontrollably while I try to blow ballast and lose the battle than just having the control taken away instantly and the boat plunging down. :hmm:

At distance, I'd like minor compartmental damage to be a bit more frequent.

I agree with this. In older sub games (i'm thinking it might have been SH2) I remember receiving major flooding in my bow compartments which caused my sub to slowly sink. Luckily I was in shallow enough water to hit the bottom and be able to slowly repair. I haven't had this happen in SH4 although that could just be the luck of the draw.

Either way, i'll never forget that moment. I thought I was done for but someone was looking out for me.

[kapitan_zur_see]

Originally Posted by Reaves

I agree with this. In older sub games (i'm thinking it might have been SH2) I remember receiving major flooding in my bow compartments which caused my sub to slowly sink. Luckily I was in shallow enough water to hit the bottom and be able to slowly repair. I haven't had this happen in SH4 although that could just be the luck of the draw.

Either way, i'll never forget that moment. I thought I was done for but someone was looking out for me.

Yep, i very much agree with this! I miss such moments so much in SH4&SH3 although it occured to me in SH4 some very few times in somwhat shallow waters... For me, the most interesting subsim regarding damages management was by far SH1. Never found a subsim getting that fun with it. I remember patrol in sh1 where i got plunged to seabed due to heavy damage and Heavy flooding and still being alive having a thin chance of repearing the sub. Crew was working several hours, you were seing parts gradually being slowly repaired, several hours later pumps were repaired, then water would gradually be pumped out of compartiments whilst lowering the few pressured air level remaining. All of this would take times while CO2 level would come to raise to a worrying level adding to the tension. I remember sometimes even a fire would light up in a compartiment adding to the extent of damages to repair and eating valuable oxygen. Then, after a struggle of several hours, everything was almost repaired and your sub would gradually come to the surface as buoyancy becomes positive... All of this made up for a tremendous experience where you had the feeling of living that famous repair scene in das boot.
I still wonders why it has never been done near that good in SH3 and SH4... Sometimes there's regression compared to old so called less complex games...
And that's a problem since i always found damage struggles to be a very immersive factor in a subsim. It takes an important place as it makes up for very dramatic moments. Movie directors know this very well and you often have this kind of scene in a sub movie

[tater]

This poll is for "shacks." Direct hits inside what was considered lethal (6m) and in virtual contact (well within the game's MinRadius value).

The distant damage is then semi-easy to tweak with MaxRadius.

Right now there is no such thing as a single hit kill on a sub. Just doesn't happen at moderate depth (it will if you are near crush depth).

Large MaxRadius values make a single hit do damage to more compartments, which increases "contact" lethality, but not enough. If the EFs are upped a lot, and the radius is still huge, they become too deadly presumably.

Oddly, I made some DCs with the MinEF at 499 and the MaxEF at 500, and still didn't get 1 hit kills.

tater

[tater]

1st post edited:

FATAL means the either an instant spinning death screen, damage that REQUIRES blowing tanks to surface, or a mission kill (no more engines, props, fuel, etc).

Again, this is only for "skin kills" where the bomb detonates in virtual contact for part 1, and the presumed lethal radius for part 2.


tater

Originally Posted by CCIP

Personally, what I really miss a lot of times is a chance to die slowly. I've no objection to direct or near-direct hits being very deadly, but I'd prefer it'd end with my boat flooding uncontrollably while I try to blow ballast and lose the battle than just having the control taken away instantly and the boat plunging down. :hmm:

At distance, I'd like minor compartmental damage to be a bit more frequent.

I also have to agree with CCIP. The instant death screen sucks bad. I modded the U-boat armor levels in SH3 for my latest mod to where the U-boat will not be instantly destroyed followed by a death screen. Now, the U-boat will only be destroyed by hull integrity reaching zero from being dragged down by flooding and being crushed or being blown to pieces on the surface. An instant death screen from one close depth charge may be the most realistic, but it sure as hell isn't fun for a game.

But I agree with Tater. One or two very close depth charges should be enough to kill a sub. Just not instantly.

[Ducimus]

RE : instant death

I think the cause in this might be.. i suspect, some of the fundamental mechanics have changed in code.

For instance "crash speed". It used to function as a variable about how fast, or slow your sub bleed hitpoints when below crush depth. Set it for real low number, you sub crushed real slow, and you had time to recover.

It does not do this in Sh4. The game seems to making an arbitrary decision that once you've been blow crush depth for X amount of time - game over, period. Going below crush depth, i did not see any H.I loss at all. just 0% damage and then BAM 100%, with nothing in between.

Maybe the speed is still too high and i need to slow it down more? but i doubt that will solve anything except to delay the abitrary decision the game makes.