[help] Frigate and antiship missiles, how to survive

[goldorak]

Hey guys I've got a problem. I've been playing lately with the frigate and the one problem I can't seem to come to terms with is the antiship missiles.
When they are inbound to the frigate I just don't have the time to shoot them all down.
I've tired different scenarios, 688i launching 2-3-4 missiles against the OHP at a distance of 10-16 nm and its great if I shoot one down, but the others hit the target.
I've tried a combination of cwis, chaff and flares, going flank and changing course, even using the 76 mm canon and of course the sm-2 but nothing seems to work with 100% reliability. There is not a single defense system on the frigate that has a 360 degree view so when I hear the incoming missiles I have to decide which system I will use to shoot them down. The problem is that none of them is particularly effective. The problem of course is that even a single hit can damage at 100% the frigate.
I've even tried using the helicopter as an early airborne warning system using its radar to identify very early incoming vampires so as to give me the time to react but usualy the missiles appear on the map when very very near to the frigate.
Does the frigate always loose against an opponent launching antiship missiles ?
Some advice is welcome.

I'm using lwami 3.08.

[Molon Labe]

DW's version of the FFG should be able to survive nearly any attack using subsonic SSMs (SM-2 is 75% base effectiveness, adequate time for as many as 3 shots at an incoming missile, CIWS nearly 100% effective), should be about 90% effective in shooting down high altitude supersonic missiles if it has a helo up (75% base, plus you usually get a 2nd shot if the 1st misses), and is generally ineffective at shooting down supersonic missiles when no helo is spotting. It has a chance at stopping the first of a SS-N-27 salvo but the interface is too slow for all but the quickest players to shoot down a second.

If you're getting hit by Harpoon or TASMs in salvoes smaller than 10 missiles, you're doing something wrong... especially if they were fired from 15nm out because you get a free shot at them during the boost phase.... OR, you're playing in MP and the lag is making missile targeting impossible.

Against a unidirectional subsonic missile salvo, the standard drill I'd recommend is turning abeam to the threat to unmask the CIWS and engaging the incoming two at a time with the SM-2. If more than 8 missiles are incoming, throw in some chaff...start popping chaff before the first ESM hit and stop after the last.

If the missiles are coming in separate prongs, then if at all possible direct as much SM-2/chaff toward one prong, engaging the other only when you can do so without sacrificing coverage to the first prong. You can count on the CIWS to smack down one prong on its own, but it will have trouble if it's wasting time rotating to cover missiles from different directions.

DW's FFG is so overpowered it can take on a Kirov and its Shipwreck missiles and win. It should beat subsonic missiles most of the time.

[goldorak]

Thanks for the input Molon Labe.
I'm definitely doing something wrong then since I can't get the tsams launched from the 688i to be shot down. You said that it is important that the helicopter spots the missiles so as to give the frigate a chance to shoot down the subsonic missiles during the boost phase, is it sufficient to have it 10 miles out on the lookout for missile launches or should it be necessary to use the helicopter onboard radar as well ?

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by goldorak

Thanks for the input Molon Labe.
I'm definitely doing something wrong then since I can't get the tsams launched from the 688i to be shot down. You said that it is important that the helicopter spots the missiles so as to give the frigate a chance to shoot down the subsonic missiles during the boost phase, is it sufficient to have it 10 miles out on the lookout for missile launches or should it be necessary to use the helicopter onboard radar as well ?

You don't need a helo spotter to get a cheap shot on the boost phase, the missiles get high enough for your on board radars to get an early shot at them. Against slow missiles in small numbers, having a helo spotter doesn't make much of a difference. Your ship's radars are going to pick the contacts up around 10nm, giving you pretty much all day to get missile salvoes out. If you're dealing with a full VLS, then you might get some benefit from the spotter pushing your engagement out a bit farther, but not more than a few seconds. Even with a spotter your FCRs have to be able to acquire the target (probably LWAMI only, the stock FCR can see through the horizon just fine) so the benefit of the spotter is only interface time. The spotter helo makes a big difference against high altitude supersonic missiles because those missiles will be inside detection range but will go several secords without being reported by the onboard radars--or sometimes not being reported at all, even in single player where lag isn't a possible factor (i.e., North Atlantic Convoy).

The location of the spotter helo isn't all that critical, its effectiveness comes from its altitude and its ability to see over the horizon. Just keep it away from any surface threat's SAM range.

-----
Let's see if we can figure out where the issue is. Is this in MP or SP mode, and if MP are you the host or client? What range are your radars first reporting the incoming missile? What rate of fire are you achieiving with the SM-2? What level of performance are you getting with the CIWS?

[TLAM Strike]

If your playing MP have someone fly one of the seahawks and at the first hint of incoming vampires have him start poping off chaff. Helo chaff is just as effective as FFG chaff in decoying missiles.

Also make sure your not firing your SAMs at vampires that have already been 'thrashed' (IE shot down). Your see missiles on your weapons control plot in groups off two (three if your reciving Link data from an off board sensor) since your Auto TMA has not had time to merge them in to a single track so keep that in mind.

You can also jump over to the 76mm gun control pannel if your STIR don't go in to CWI mode and "unlock" the CAS system for targeting two targets at once.

EDIT: Also don't bother with Flares if your not dealing with weapons with IR seekers. Currently I think only the Mav, N-2 and N-9 have IR seekers (along with a few other small missiles). But that will change soon...

[Molon Labe]

Stop teaching people to cheat, TLAM.

And by the way, once the missile is shot down, the FCR won't be illuminating anything when it is assigned to the non-existing target and the SM-2 will not be eligible to be fired. :p

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Stop teaching people to cheat, TLAM.

Since I've seen SM-2s track/kill stuff with out going in to CWI I don't really consider this a "cheat" more of a work around for something thats a little buggy.

And by the way, once the missile is shot down, the FCR won't be illuminating anything when it is assigned to the non-existing target and the SM-2 will not be eligible to be fired. :p

Hmmm got me there. :hmm:

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Since I've seen SM-2s track/kill stuff with out going in to CWI I don't really consider this a "cheat" more of a work around for something thats a little buggy.

To the extent that using an interface bug is a "work-around," it works around the systems simulated by the software, giving the player using it a super-system which is not available to players playing within the terms of the simulation. If you want to play semantics to call that something other than cheating, that's your right.... But doing so would demonstrate a remarkable capacity for self-deception.

[Dr.Sid]

It seems I'm blind again .. what cheat are you talking about ?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

To the extent that using an interface bug is a "work-around," it works around the systems simulated by the software, giving the player using it a super-system which is not available to players playing within the terms of the simulation. If you want to play semantics to call that something other than cheating, that's your right.... But doing so would demonstrate a remarkable capacity for self-deception.

No its a work around of something the program got wrong at since the MK 92 FC Mod 6 system can engage up to four targets at once, illumnating each target in sequince for seprate SAMs.

Is there any reason why an FFG-7 couldn't use its CAS system if the target is in range other than the fact that the STIR system has better range? If the STIR is damaged the CAS is automaticly "unlocked"!

The Radar sytem in DW is a joke compared to the Sonar system.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

No its a work around of something the program got wrong at since the MK 92 FC Mod 6 system can engage up to four targets at once, illumnating each target in sequince for seprate SAMs.

Perhaps. That doesn't change the fact that you're stepping outside what is simulated, giving you greater capability than the people who haven't figured out how to activate the cheat. Youi know, if I thought the Kilo had a better sonar than DW gave it credit for then I could use your excuse to use the Kilo sonar cheat.

Is there any reason why an FFG-7 couldn't use its CAS system if the target is in range other than the fact that the STIR system has better range? If the STIR is damaged the CAS is automaticly "unlocked"!

What difference does it make which FCR you use first? What does this have to do with anything?

The Radar sytem in DW is a joke compared to the Sonar system.

Yep.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Is there any reason why an FFG-7 couldn't use its CAS system if the target is in range other than the fact that the STIR system has better range? If the STIR is damaged the CAS is automaticly "unlocked"!

What difference does it make which FCR you use first? What does this have to do with anything?[/quote] It has everything to do with it since I'm saying there is nothing to prevent the crew of a real FFG7 from using the CAS before using the STIR. Unlike in DW where there is a line of code that says the CAS dosn't become useable in the missile control pannel until STIR is in CWI Mode, while at the same time its fully useable from Gun Control. The CAS is fully useable without the STIR system being even functional.

[goldorak]

I'm back and I really thank everybody for the usefull insights (some which I knew like the stir/cas limitation and some which I didn't know).
Now to the point, the other day I designed a test mission which I then played in multiplayer with a friend. The frigate was on a course of 000 and the 688i (piloted by me) was 10 nm behind. Between the two there were no other contacts surface or air. On the frigate the cwis was enabled on auto (later we tried full auto), surface radar on, I then launched a single tasm on the frigate. Well I was astounded when the cwis didn't even lock on the target. Nothing, it stood as if no missile was incoming. We later tried and akula firing asm and the same occured, the cwis is not working.
Using DW default and other mods instead the cwis is fully functional albeit with a different degree of effectiveness. The big problem is that in lwami 3.08 the cwis doens't even lock on the missile, let alone shoot it down.
Can somebody do a double check on this and tell luftwolf that something is broken with his mod ?


Edit : of course the tasm and later the ssn-27 hit the frigate, the first with 100% damage and the second with only 40-50% damage.

[Molon Labe]

I've seen it happen in a LAN test once. I don't know what causes it. But since you are attributing it to LWAMI, you apparently know what causes it, so maybe you can inform the rest of us.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

What difference does it make which FCR you use first? What does this have to do with anything?

It has everything to do with it since I'm saying there is nothing to prevent the crew of a real FFG7 from using the CAS before using the STIR. Unlike in DW where there is a line of code that says the CAS dosn't become useable in the missile control pannel until STIR is in CWI Mode, while at the same time its fully useable from Gun Control. The CAS is fully useable without the STIR system being even functional.[/quote]
Still, so what? The functionality of both FCRs are the same. If either of them is assigned to an object, an SM-2 is allowed to be fired and guided. It makes no difference in the sim which is assigned, so even if you were able to use the CAS first, nothing would change. You might as well be bitching about the graphics.