French Vessels post 1940

leet657 · 03-09-07, 06:45 AM

Last night I spotted a tramp steamer. As I closed I noticed that it was a french ship. The date is after the french surrendered and German forces have taken over the north of France. I attacked it and sunk it, (mainly to test my new subs deck gun) but also because it was travelling north towards the bay of Biscay. Now it looks as though the ship was classified as neutral. Is there anyway of determining if the ship belonged to the "Free French" or Vichy French government?

OuNiS · 03-09-07, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leet657

Last night I spotted a tramp steamer. As I closed I noticed that it was a french ship. The date is after the french surrendered and German forces have taken over the north of France. I attacked it and sunk it, (mainly to test my new subs deck gun) but also because it was travelling north towards the bay of Biscay. Now it looks as though the ship was classified as neutral. Is there anyway of determining if the ship belonged to the "Free French" or Vichy French government?

In stock SH3? I think no.

JScones · 03-09-07, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leet657

Last night I spotted a tramp steamer. As I closed I noticed that it was a french ship. The date is after the french surrendered and German forces have taken over the north of France. I attacked it and sunk it, (mainly to test my new subs deck gun) but also because it was travelling north towards the bay of Biscay. Now it looks as though the ship was classified as neutral. Is there anyway of determining if the ship belonged to the "Free French" or Vichy French government?

What flavour of SH3?

The simplest way is to look at the flag. If, as you say, France had surrendered by the time you saw the ship, then an undefaced tricolore would signify Vichy France as Free France defaced the French flag with the Cross of Lorraine.

OuNiS · 03-09-07, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

Or we could add Vichy France as a new "country". :hmm:

But why?
In GWX we have neutral Vichy France from VI 1940 to X 1943 and for this period we could attack Free French vessels which use other flags.

JScones · 03-09-07, 08:26 AM

Yes, I've edited my earlier post to remove confusion and unnecessary debate (it's 1am here and I didn't articulate it correctly). Just to be clear to everyone, GWX does model France as Vichy France between 1940 and 1944.

leet657 · 03-09-07, 08:42 AM

I am currently running SH3 1.4 plus GWX.
So as far as I can gather from the discussion, there is no way to tell the difference and to treat all "French" ships as neutral.
All "Free French" ships are considered to be re-flaged during the war for the purpose of the game.
Like the idea of amending French Flag though, it would add more realism and you would have to take note of the flag with a bit of care.

JScones · 03-09-07, 08:52 AM

Ummm, which part of "The simplest way is to look at the flag. If, as you say, France had surrendered by the time you saw the ship, then an undefaced tricolore would signify Vichy France as Free France defaced the French flag with the Cross of Lorraine." did you miss?

Free French ships are not "considered" to re-flagged, they *are* re-flagged in GWX just as they *were* in RL, exactly as per my statement above. This is outlined on page 52 of the GWX 1.02 manual which clearly outlines the flag differences between France/Vichy France and Free France.

All you need to know are the dates that France "became" Vichy France "became" France again and you won't have any problems. Anything flying the Free French flags can be sunk on sight. Remember, Vichy France was officially neutral.

leet657 · 03-09-07, 09:16 AM

Sorry I wrote my last post based on what OuNis stated and before your last statement "GWX does model France as Vichy France between 1940 and 1944."
Should have looked in the manual as well - point taken.

JScones · 03-09-07, 09:21 AM

Don't worry - I knew what I was saying (as my original comment will attest), but I didn't articulate the second para clearly enough which prolly caused confusion.

I will point out one thing which will be fixed in the next GWX patch, the flaggen sheet (accessed via the periscope screen) currently contains a typo for France: 26/08/40 should be 26/08/44.

Indeed, the next patch will include corrected dates for France and other countries, but these dates will not help you with 1.02.

Mush Martin · 03-09-07, 09:26 AM

Just out of Curiosity do you know if anybody put in the scuttlings
at Toulon etc. in GWX I havent been there are there

"Ships to sea" so to speak there?

[edit] in retrospect id suppose not from the sea folder

bigboywooly · 03-09-07, 09:30 AM

Bit hard to simulate scuttlings when all we have is a barricade ship lol

Not been myself to Toulon - only in the mission ed
There are ships there though as it is a player base

Baracuda · 03-09-07, 04:09 PM

Just look at you recognition manual in standard SH3 the flags r in there are Vichy French is a normal Tricolour and Free french has the fluer de lis on it

Pevs86 · 03-09-07, 04:16 PM

I must admit I engaged anything Free French initially... then I noticed some French ships in German ports and the penny dropped.

STEED · 03-09-07, 06:48 PM

Stuff grid patrols from 1939 to the fall of France the Bay of Biscay has hot pickings and around NW of Spain, just sink as many French ships you can before France falls.

That's my hot tip of the day.

bigboywooly · 03-09-07, 08:04 PM

Quite simple

French flag

Neutral ( Vichy ) 26 June 40 - 22 Oct 44 ( Allied before and after )

FreeFrench flag

Allied 1 July 40 - 22 Oct 44

03-09-07, 06:45 AM	#1
leet657 Swabbie Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Halifax Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	French Vessels post 1940 Last night I spotted a tramp steamer. As I closed I noticed that it was a french ship. The date is after the french surrendered and German forces have taken over the north of France. I attacked it and sunk it, (mainly to test my new subs deck gun) but also because it was travelling north towards the bay of Biscay. Now it looks as though the ship was classified as neutral. Is there anyway of determining if the ship belonged to the "Free French" or Vichy French government?

03-09-07, 08:26 AM	#5
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Yes, I've edited my earlier post to remove confusion and unnecessary debate (it's 1am here and I didn't articulate it correctly). Just to be clear to everyone, GWX does model France as Vichy France between 1940 and 1944. Last edited by JScones; 03-09-07 at 09:03 AM.

03-09-07, 08:52 AM	#7
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Ummm, which part of "The simplest way is to look at the flag. If, as you say, France had surrendered by the time you saw the ship, then an undefaced tricolore would signify Vichy France as Free France defaced the French flag with the Cross of Lorraine." did you miss? Free French ships are not "considered" to re-flagged, they are re-flagged in GWX just as they were in RL, exactly as per my statement above. This is outlined on page 52 of the GWX 1.02 manual which clearly outlines the flag differences between France/Vichy France and Free France. All you need to know are the dates that France "became" Vichy France "became" France again and you won't have any problems. Anything flying the Free French flags can be sunk on sight. Remember, Vichy France was officially neutral. Last edited by JScones; 03-09-07 at 09:12 AM.

03-09-07, 09:26 AM	#10
Mush Martin Eternal Patrol Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,398 Downloads: 4 Uploads: 0	Just out of Curiosity do you know if anybody put in the scuttlings at Toulon etc. in GWX I havent been there are there "Ships to sea" so to speak there? [edit] in retrospect id suppose not from the sea folder __________________ RIP Mush Tutorial

03-09-07, 09:30 AM	#11
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Bit hard to simulate scuttlings when all we have is a barricade ship lol Not been myself to Toulon - only in the mission ed There are ships there though as it is a player base __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

03-09-07, 08:42 AM	#6
leet657 Swabbie Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Halifax Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I am currently running SH3 1.4 plus GWX. So as far as I can gather from the discussion, there is no way to tell the difference and to treat all "French" ships as neutral. All "Free French" ships are considered to be re-flaged during the war for the purpose of the game. Like the idea of amending French Flag though, it would add more realism and you would have to take note of the flag with a bit of care.

03-09-07, 09:16 AM	#8
leet657 Swabbie Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Halifax Posts: 11 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Sorry I wrote my last post based on what OuNis stated and before your last statement "GWX does model France as Vichy France between 1940 and 1944." Should have looked in the manual as well - point taken.

03-09-07, 09:21 AM	#9
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	Don't worry - I knew what I was saying (as my original comment will attest), but I didn't articulate the second para clearly enough which prolly caused confusion. I will point out one thing which will be fixed in the next GWX patch, the flaggen sheet (accessed via the periscope screen) currently contains a typo for France: 26/08/40 should be 26/08/44. Indeed, the next patch will include corrected dates for France and other countries, but these dates will not help you with 1.02.

03-09-07, 04:09 PM	#12
Baracuda Watch Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 15 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Just look at you recognition manual in standard SH3 the flags r in there are Vichy French is a normal Tricolour and Free french has the fluer de lis on it

03-09-07, 04:16 PM	#13
Pevs86 Machinist's Mate Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Uxbridge, England Posts: 123 Downloads: 14 Uploads: 0	I must admit I engaged anything Free French initially... then I noticed some French ships in German ports and the penny dropped.

03-09-07, 06:48 PM	#14
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	Stuff grid patrols from 1939 to the fall of France the Bay of Biscay has hot pickings and around NW of Spain, just sink as many French ships you can before France falls. That's my hot tip of the day. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

03-09-07, 08:04 PM	#15
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Quite simple French flag Neutral ( Vichy ) 26 June 40 - 22 Oct 44 ( Allied before and after ) FreeFrench flag Allied 1 July 40 - 22 Oct 44 __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41