Assault Weapons

[SUBMAN1]

Watching the news last night (a rarity for me), and some Sheriff guy is up there saying that we need to ban Assault Weapons again. Can someone tell me why? It is not like they are used in crime or anything, so I don't get it. I guess that's it, I just don't get it.

My reasoning as to why - What they describe as Assault Weapons (really just sporting rifles since the military have an almost near monopoly on real assault weapons) accounts for a massively huge 0.2% use in all violent gun crimes. Yes that's right, 1/5th of 1% of gun crimes are committed with Assault style weapons.

Hmm. Seems to me that if you banned Assault Style Military rifles, you would not have 1/5th of 1% of gun crime. What a dramatic decrease that is?! Wow! So that means we will only have 99.8% of all gun crimes left after you remove these ugly things from our houses. Hmm. That is making headway now isn't it?!! So instead of having 100 crimes, we would have uhh... 100 crimes! Since the 0.2% is of course rounded up. Big progress! Why is it only 0.2% - simple - it is not practical for a crime! No criminal wants to lug a rifle around so that it waves a big "hear! Look at me!" type sign.

So, I researched further, I figured out that of every gun crime committed, rifles accounted for a whopping total of 4% of those! Wow! If we ban all rifles, including deer hunting rifles, and .22's, we would lower the gun crime rate to what? 96% of it's current level? So instead of 100 crimes, we would have uhh... 96 crimes! Big progress! Not!

Hmm... Could it be that the assault rifle or deer hunting rifle that is sitting in the closet is inspiring criminals to for out and shoot people with handguns? hahahahaha! Hmm... Must be according to some people's logic since they really aren't being used for any real crimes.

This brings me to my point. Why are police chiefs and gun ban whacko's so bent on going after 1 particular style of rifle? Especially one that is designed to wound and not kill? You can't even use 5.56 mm deer hunting - it is illegal simply because there is a high likelyhood it won't kill the deer! It is nothing more than an icon for a bigger problem. A lot of hot air so that they can show people they are doing something when they really are not. Nothing more. Politics, either for a complete firearm ban, or to get re-elected by whacko's. I can't figure any other answer to the question.

I do have a suggestion however (how could you ever guess?)! So if one wants to do something to lower gun crime, I have one MAJOR recommendation:

Simply create a National Database on the Internet for Stolen guns!

How simple is that? By the way, one doesn't exist at this point, and I can't fathom why with all the other databases that are available to you!!! Why doesn't this exist? Do you realize how many stolen guns would be taken off the street from criminals with this simple database? That would instantly stop sale of how many weapons by people who want nothing to do with stolen merchandise? Tons! Criminals would have their stolen gun sales cut off at the knees in so many circumstances, I bet you would even see a major drop in gun crime as a result - not 4% mind you, but maybe even 50% or better!

Again - just my 2 cents on a controversial issue. People should stop it with the icons, and instead take real action on a real issue. I am almost convinced that politicians think they are staying in office simply because a problem exists and have no intention of fixing anything anymore.

Anyway, now you have my thoughts.... And to finish, even if you did an outright ban on this one style of rifle, you only need look across the water to figure out that the criminals would still have them. In London England, a fully automatic (real) AK-47 assault rifle - not our sporting variety, can be had for as little as 800 pounds on the street - in a country where firearms are pretty much outright banned.

Enough said.

-S

[antikristuseke]

To be honest, this assault weapon ban has allways puzzled me and come off as nonsensical and hypocritical. While I understand a lot tighter regulations being imposed on fully automatic firearms, why should semi automatic rifles which use military calibres be subject to tighter regulations if other high powered rifles arent. Anyway as SUBMAN1 pointed out these types of rifles are rarely used in violent crime, im guessing mostly because they are difficult to conceal and impractical.

BTW Subman the 5.56 being designed to wound seems to be a myth, the currently in use 5.56 fmj rounds are designed to tuble after 4 inches of soft tissue and to fragment to contaminate the wound if the shot isnt leathal. Though .223 are indeed banned for deer hunting because deforming soft points simply dont have ennough energy to achive suficent penetration to reliably reach vital organs.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

...BTW Subman the 5.56 being designed to wound seems to be a myth, the currently in use 5.56 fmj rounds are designed to tuble after 4 inches of soft tissue and to fragment to contaminate the wound if the shot isnt leathal. Though .223 are indeed banned for deer hunting because deforming soft points simply dont have ennough energy to achive suficent penetration to reliably reach vital organs.

It is actually not designed that way, and that only happens at short range. The military didn't fully understand it till 1986 either, since it is not by design. Longer ranges, and it will only wound. Up close it kills, partially due to cavity and fragmentation. This fragmentation actually makes it safer to use indoors since the fragmenting round has little wall penetration. Where a .45 might go through a couple of your neighbors houses, a fragmenting 5.56, both 55 gr and 62 gr, seems to stop short quickly! So there is much less chance of hurting someone else not involved while in defense of ones self.

Of course if you are the news media, they will overexagerate the fact that it is a high power rifle so it must go through tanks or something (sarcasm).

-S

[The WosMan]

I think most people who own assault weapons are crazy.......only because it is so darn expensive. Do you have any idea how much it costs to have fun with one of those damn things???!!!!!

I have gone on a few machine gun shoots before (luckily many of the the guys who were there are doctors and lawyers so they don't mind sharing) and that was some of the most fun I had in my life. Nothing quite like shooting refridgerators filled with TNT or other various surprises or catching a car on fire in incindiary ammo. Only in America can a civilian enjoy that type of fun.

Of course if you are the news media, they will overexagerate the fact that it is a high power rifle so it must go through tanks or something (sarcasm).

Yeah I remember when that Zarala or whatever his name is on CNN doing a special on assault weapons and they edited the footage to make the gun look more deadly. The semi-automatic AK 47 didn't scratch some cinder blocks but the fully automatic one destroyed them, as if the fully automatic one fires a larger more deadlier bullet or something. It was quite ridiculous.

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

It is actually not designed that way, and that only happens at short range. The military didn't fully understand it till 1986 either, since it is not by design. Longer ranges, and it will only wound. Up close it kills, partially due to cavity and fragmentation. This fragmentation actually makes it safer to use indoors since the fragmenting round has little wall penetration. Where a .45 might go through a couple of your neighbors houses, a fragmenting 5.56, both 55 gr and 62 gr, seems to stop short quickly! So there is much less chance of hurting someone else not involved while in defense of ones self.

Of course if you are the news media, they will overexagerate the fact that it is a high power rifle so it must go through tanks or something (sarcasm).

-S

Thats true for the old 5.56 round and the old barrel rifling twist. The current rounds are heavyer and the rifling twist is different. And .45 is a really poor penetrator tbh. Anyway the 5.56 will go through several sheets of drywall while tumbling without disintegrating, but yes, it is generaly safer for indeoor use, though for indoor use special frangible amunition is advised.
Though im not 100% sure of the 5.56 design, havent done all that much research on it, just some casual browsing over the years.

The WosMan, yeah the media tends to exagerate things a lot, but this thread isnt really about fully automatic rifles, just rifles which look like their military use counterparts.

[The WosMan]

Yeah, I know. To me a gun is a gun. I own them, I collect them, and I enjoy using them against paper targets and the occasional fowl, groundhog, rabbit, deer, squirrel, etc. Speaking of .45, I recently purchased a nice Springfield 1911-A1 at Camp Perry back in September.

I've been looking at a Kimber 1911 for years but can't seem to pull the trigger on the purchase.

[The WosMan]

For me the price was right, I got help in lowering it by someone with influence who happened to be at the store talking to my father and I. The Springfield rep also threw in 4 magazines and those things are worth over $20 a piece.

[antikristuseke]

Been looking at geting Para Ordnance P14-45 myself for my 21st bday but that will have to wait because i havent served my time in the army yet and am not eligeble for a concealed carry licence before that. If things go acording to play ill be in the armed forces for 11 months starting the coming summer.

[The WosMan]

Congrats!

I have my CCW now but the local laws that should be superseded by the State make it hard for me to carry without being a criminal due to the schools and signs and legal distance and other anti-gun legal mumbo jumbo that requires you to stay "X" feet away from different structures while carrying. Quite an affront to my constitutional right.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by waste gate

I've been looking at a Kimber 1911 for years but can't seem to pull the trigger on the purchase.

I have a Kimber Pro Carry. Excellent gun. See if you can get an original Pro Carry. And no you can't buy it. I hate the new Pro Carry II's. They have that lawyer induced safety garbage on them - just something else to go wrong and something that does nothing for you.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

Thats true for the old 5.56 round and the old barrel rifling twist. The current rounds are heavyer and the rifling twist is different.

Rifling twist on the 62 gr is 1:7. On the old 55 gr, 1:12. This is what made most manufacturers produce with a 1:9 twist to be able to fire both well. It has absolutely no effect on the fragmentation os the rough, since after it strikes an object, the same yawing will occur - the bullet is back end heavy and twist towards it's center of gravity - the back end. Apporximately at 90 degrees, it will fragment.

And .45 is a really poor penetrator tbh.

this is an old myth. I't heavy weight (230 gr) actually makes it one of the best penetrators out there, and it loves to go through objects without slowing down at all. Another myth is that the .357 is an excellent penetrator. As was proven time and time again, it is OK, not great.

Flesh is an excellent back stop for penetration analysis, and to give you an idea, both 5.56 mm rounds (62 and 55 gr) penetrate about equal through flesh - about 13 inches approx. For comparrison purposes and to keep apples to apples, a non expanding 230 FMJ .45 round will penetrate nearly 27 inches through flesh. Even an expanding round like .45 hydrashocks will still reliably hit 18 inches consistently. To compare to a .357 125 gr (JSP even), you get a penetration depth of only 14 inches, much much less than a .45.

-S

[antikristuseke]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Rifling twist on the 62 gr is 1:7. On the old 55 gr, 1:12. This is what made most manufacturers produce with a 1:9 twist to be able to fire both well. It has absolutely no effect on the fragmentation os the rough, since after it strikes an object, the same yawing will occur - the bullet is back end heavy and twist towards it's center of gravity - the back end. Apporximately at 90 degrees, it will fragment.

The speed at which a projectile spins does affect the projectiles likelyhood to tumble on contact and due to that allso the likelyhood of the bullet to fragment since the round fragments when going through mater sideways where the force is too great for it to retain structural integrity.

this is an old myth. I't heavy weight (230 gr) actually makes it one of the best penetrators out there, and it loves to go through objects without slowing down at all. Another myth is that the .357 is an excellent penetrator. As was proven time and time again, it is OK, not great.

Flesh is an excellent back stop for penetration analysis, and to give you an idea, both 5.56 mm rounds (62 and 55 gr) penetrate about equal through flesh - about 13 inches approx. For comparrison purposes and to keep apples to apples, a non expanding 230 FMJ .45 round will penetrate nearly 27 inches through flesh. Even an expanding round like .45 hydrashocks will still reliably hit 18 inches consistently. To compare to a .357 125 gr (JSP even), you get a penetration depth of only 14 inches, much much less than a .45.

-S

From my own experience i have found 115grain 9mm rounds to penetrate a bit better than 230grain .45 fmj. Cant really say anything on the .357 since i havent got any experience with it and it being 4am dont really feel like going through hours worth of material to come to any conlusion.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

The speed at which a projectile spins does affect the projectiles likelyhood to tumble on contact and due to that allso the likelyhood of the bullet to fragment since the round fragments when going through mater sideways where the force is too great for it to retain structural integrity.

According to the US military, it has no effect. Dr. Fackler reports that the bullet will seek a state of center of gravity forward, regardless of twist rate. This is the rear end of the bullet. Penetration between the two are shown as nearly identical. If you notice, the heavier 62 gr starts this transition earlier than the 55 gr, even though it is spinning faster:

From my own experience i have found 115grain 9mm rounds to penetrate a bit better than 230grain .45 fmj. Cant really say anything on the .357 since i havent got any experience with it and it being 4am dont really feel like going through hours worth of material to come to any conlusion.

115 gr by the way is the worst ammo weight of any 9mm round out there. Though fun for plinking - (put almost 700 rounds through MP5's and Glock 18's last time I was in AZ! The glock eats ammo faster though and is not very good for anything more than spraying!). So bad it is banned by the FBI for use in the line of duty. It has a pathetic penetration of only about 8 to 10 inches (An expanding round is even worse. The FBI require minimum 12 inches since you will never get a full on torso shot when defending yourself). This is why that guy who was shot 32 times with 115 gr, with about 10 of them that should have been fatal, failed to be dropped! He returned fire like nothing was wrong! the 33rd time he was hit, hit his juggler vein (A major lucky shot!) and that is the only thing that dropped him. 147 gr 9mm fixes this issue by the way and has proper penetration. I wouldn't bet my life on 115 gr. I personally don't like the 9mm round at all. I'd pick a .40 as a compromise between 9 mm's lack of ability but large ammo capacity, and the .45's overall capability. In my mind though, I am in serious trouble if I need more than the 9 chambered round in my .45, so it is fine for my purposes, and highly likely to end a fight with only 1 hit.

-S

[Chock]

Just to correct a minor omission on this topic, while it is true that the AK-74 has a comparable round to the NATO 5.56 (being 5.45), the AK-47 in it's original form is very much more deadly with its 7.62 round. These rounds (more by accident than design) tumble upon penetration and create a massive wound channel with horrendous shock damage, which can indeed be fatal simply from shock in many cases, let alone the trauma and blood loss.

However, since the purpose of an assault rifle is largely for fire and maneuever tactics, where you spray bullets up the street during house-to-house fighting purely with the intention of keeping your enemy's head down while your buddy moves up into grenade-throwing range to toss one in a bunker or something, they are hardly the ideal weapon for holding up a seven-eleven.

But even if that were not the case I would agree with you, it's not the gun that commits the crime, it's the person, and they could do that with a hammer, breadknife or whatever (and in the case of the AK, they'd be far less likely to miss with a breadknife), which is why the sweeping UK gun ban (largely a kneejerk reaction from the infamous Hungerford AK-47 shootings, from the land of preposterous kneejerk reactions), has done nothing to lower gun crime here, in fact it's gone up.

Many were quick to yell 'ban all guns' when that happened, but how many were asking, what can we do to prevent someone from considering such a course of action in the first place? All the ban did was hurt legitimate law-abiding gun enthusiasts, and as a result put a few more illegal guns into the community, which are now devoid of any sort of regulation or monitoring. What needs to be addressed (in every country) is the morality which would make anyone want to use a gun (or anything else for that matter) to commit a crime in the first place, and banning weapons does not address this issue one iota, it merely makes guns more desireable as a status symbol for criminals, since they are effectively, 'the forbidden fruit'.

I am personally an advocate of the idea that in the UK, children of age 14 or so should be taught to shoot responsibly as part of a curriculum, as I think it would serve to point out the very real difference between a gun on playstation and something which can cheerfully blow someone's head off with no possibility of pressing a reset button. If kids saw what gun can do to a few cinder blocks and targets, I suspect they might think twice about desiring one to settle an argument of some puberty-related incident, or anything in later life for that matter. but that's only half the story, what people also need is a moral compass, so that even if they had a gun, it would not enter their heads to commit a crime with it, or anything else for that matter.

Of course, guns are not everyone's cup of tea, and many will not see that you could be interested in them and still be a perfectly nice person who helps old ladies across the road and who wouldn't hurt a fly. I should know, behind me right now there are several field target rifles and pistols and numerous assualt rifles on the wall, such as an AK-47, AR-15 and a even a 1928 Thompson drum magazine sub machine gun (don't worry Mr UK Plod IP tracker dude, they are all either deactivated or perfectly legal, and yes I am in a recognised field target shooting club, so committing a crime with any of them would be like robbing a bank and using my own car for the getaway, and if you are waiting for me to hold up a petrol station with one, all I can say is, don't hold your breath).

Gun legislation is a childishly naive approach to what can of course be a problem, but it completely circumvents the real issue, sadly, it's always a vote-winner with those of a more left wing political bent, which is sort of ironic when you consider that AK-47's origins and it's iconic status with guerrillas. Tough on the causes of crime, rather than the (potential) tools of it should be the way to go.

Chock