New keelhauling record?

[I-25]

Thats got to be a new Keelhauling record! not even a subsim member for complete day!

but hell lollerblader asked for it, you shouln't mess with 9/11 like that

[JSLTIGER]

I doubt that his record will ever be broken, however, by starting this thread, you're simply promoting the viewing of the locked one (yes, I realize that I'm doing the same by posting in this one, I'm not proud of it, but IMHO, it's something that needs to be said).

[bookworm_020]

I just wish people would consider others and think before posting comments. I have stopped myself a couple of times, because I didn't want to cause problems or derail a thread.

There have been a few thrown into the brig as well, so even if you are upset with what people may say, we should keep civil tounges at all times, even when replying in a heated debate!

[melnibonian]

Although I agree that the 9/11 post was wrong and provocative I do believe that we (all of us-westerners- I mean) have double standards. We do post stuff that make fun of "others" (the ones that basically make fun of 9/11 etc) but we don't like when equivalent posts are directed to us. I feel that a bit of moderation and acceptance of the individual particular sencitive issues is important.

I'm not taking sides here just stating an observation. If someone is offended it is not intentional

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by melnibonian

Although I agree that the 9/11 post was wrong and provocative I do believe that we (all of us-westerners- I mean) have double standards. We do post stuff that make fun of "others" (the ones that basically make fun of 9/11 etc) but we don't like when equivalent posts are directed to us. I feel that a bit of moderation and acceptance of the individual particular sencitive issues is important.

There is no room for humoring such gross acts of butchering by civilization's enemies.

I wonder what Nazi propaganda you would have tolerated had you been around 65 years ago.

Have you no fundamental ability to differentiate between friend and foe?

What is wrong with people nowdays?!

[melnibonian]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

There is no room for humoring such gross acts of butchering by civilization's enemies.

The "others" you know have civilisation as well and they do see the west as their enemy. That of course does not stop us from making fun of the equivalent gross acts of butchering.

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

I wonder what Nazi propaganda you would have tolerated had you been around 65 years ago.

I wonder when we will be able to have a discussion without the Nazis turning up

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Have you no fundamental ability to differentiate between friend and foe?

If you spend some time and actually read my previous post you will see that I did not take sides and I've just stated about the double standards that exist in the West. (make fun of the others it's OK. make fun of 9/11 and you get banned from SubSim) I'm sure they exist in the "East" as well (as in the "North" or "South") but at this particular moment the West is in question. I did not find the post funny or anything else. In any case I would suggest trying to read once more

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

What is wrong with people nowdays?!

Far too many things if you ask me but on the other hand we're all going to live on the same planet so the sooner we learn to accept each other the better our lives are going to be

[Skybird]

And why must we accept the other at all costs, no matter what, even if it is at the cost of our own most vital qualities? why should we have no rights to claim certain preconditions by the other must be met in order to make him acceptable for us? Why shall we give up the right of self-defense in the widest meaning, just for this unlimited acceptance and unlimiuted tolerance? In the end, both is possible only by finally rejecting our own identity, our own rights, our own self-acceptance.

No, we must not accept the other at all cost. Lesson learned from WWII.

Before I alarmed Neal over the now locked thread, I had posted there in reply to Mapuc who saw the issue touching the basic understanding of democracy, and that this is the reason why everyone should be free to say whatever he wants. I copy over my reply from there, slighty edited (to get rid of the typos ):

Everything has limits. Making critical, even controversial statements is one thing. Blind racism, for example, or Nazistic propaganda, and speeches arguing in favour of the destruction of the right of free speech, extreme stuff like this - this is a very different thing, and it shall not be covered by the right of "free speech". The law also does not give you the right of free action - and then robbing other people without legal consequences, for example. Everything has limits as long as you are not alone in the world.

This sick stranger wanted to provoke, and he succeeded with all of you. Proper action would have been to not post a singly reply, hint the mods and see the thing locked or deleted and the person banned. Some things simply are not to be tolerated, Meinungsfreiheit hin, Meinungsfreiheit her. If I would easy-minded demand the nuking of Mekka - and then would make fun of it, i would get trouble with Tak immediately, I'm sure. See what I mean?

Admitted, the borderline is fluid, and sometimes hard to define. Judgement errors are possible. And still - in principle we must defend such a borderline between what is acceptable, and what not. Else we damage ourselves, and allow our own rights and liberties and values being turned against us, in order to destroy us.

If that sick stranger yesterday would have posted according "jokes" not with regard to 9/11, but the Nazis, and do it in Germany, by German valid laws he would be sued and sentenced for it. so, controversial, critical statements: yes, and they shall not be given up without counter-argument or just for simple excuses of somebody feeling offended. Beeing offended can easily become a method, a systematic routine, to silence criticism. But things like in that locked thread: well, every humour has limits, every arguing, and every liberty.

That is neither a violation of free speech, nor a damge for demcoracy. It is needed to protect both democracy and free speech.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by I-25

but hell lollerblader asked for it, you shouln't mess with 9/11 like that

Semi-agreed. Everything can be funny, but not 9/11 on this forum.

[U49]

Originally Posted by JSLTIGER

.... however, by starting this thread, you're simply promoting the viewing of the locked one

The concept of an individuals freedom of speech is one of our strongest values and as such, I for myself can not accept censorship under any circumstances.
But it must follow one single major rule: do NOT put harm on another person, insult, etc.. (Which for sure was done in that post)

Harmful is usually not the transported information. Mostly the chosen way to formulate what your idea is, brings harm. (I feel, his comments provided the total disrespect, decent explanations COULD(!) have given a totally different impression)

Talking about a graveyard is not wrong. Talking about crime or terror is not wrong.
Doing it with disrespect of the dead IS wrong!
Doing this on a declared place of a nations memories (sorry, I don't know the correct title) can not make it better at all, and this is a general requirement, regardless of your own nation or your opinion about the other.

Now what to do with "wrong" statements? Opening up the argument and providing the "better" opinion is that what civilization should have brought us to. Explain WHAT is wrong, WHY is it so, and again WHAT is better.

Kicking the offender out of the forum - right, because the published rules say so
Argumenting against his views - right, because they disrespect the victims
Staying quite and hope everybody will forget - fine, but I feel it unfair to complain when others take up the argument.

[Jimbuna]

9/11 should be viewed with the utmost seiousness by anyone that claims to be of a rational mind :hmm:

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

9/11 should be viewed with the utmost seiousness by anyone that claims to be of a rational mind :hmm:

Taking something seriously and laughing about it don't have to be mutually exclusive.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Taking something seriously and laughing about it don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Hahaha!

[Tchocky]

You take that back! Not on Memorial Day!

[TteFAboB]

I was just kidding! I mean...I was being serious. I mean... I don't know! Ok, ok, whatever, to the brig...

[P_Funk]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Taking something seriously and laughing about it don't have to be mutually exclusive.

Completely true. I mean they made hilarious bugs bunney cartoons during WW2 about Tojo and Hitler. Doesn't that say it all?