in response to alot of "used too many torps to sink a boat" threads

SingeDebile · 07-05-07, 10:48 AM

first, this is not to say that sometimes this is can be true (its taking a seemingly un natural number of torp hits to sink a ship), especially if you take into account that tanker ships are never actually full of oil for example.

I think we tend to expect ships to sink too quickly (which is encouraged by the ultra speedy sink animation), that after they get mortally hit with a torp they should sink instantly. If you let a wounded ship float for a while it will often end up sinking all its own. But we dont have time for that, we charge into a convoy and expect to sink them all in one swoop.

Realistically it could take hours for a ship to sink.... so even if it doesnt after the first couple hits then let it sit there for a while... watch it get lower and lower in the water or list more and more... or even just tell yourself you giving the men aboard the option of getting off in time.

bill clarke · 07-05-07, 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SingeDebile

first, this is not to say that sometimes this is can be true (its taking a seemingly un natural number of torp hits to sink a ship), especially if you take into account that tanker ships are never actually full of oil for example.

I think we tend to expect ships to sink too quickly (which is encouraged by the ultra speedy sink animation), that after they get mortally hit with a torp they should sink instantly. If you let a wounded ship float for a while it will often end up sinking all its own. But we dont have time for that, we charge into a convoy and expect to sink them all in one swoop.

Realistically it could take hours for a ship to sink.... so even if it doesnt after the first couple hits then let it sit there for a while... watch it get lower and lower in the water or list more and more... or even just tell yourself you giving the men aboard the option of getting off in time.

Well after reading some historical accounts of sinkings, some did go down quite quickly, especially the CVL's, that's probably the hardest part of the game to programe, so many variables.
BTW why are the tankers not filled with oil in the game ?

WernerSobe · 07-05-07, 02:02 PM

Indeed sinkings are not realistic. In my opinion small and medium cargo ships take to much. Ive seen a 3000 tons vessel eating 6 torps and keep going. There was not much left from its sidewalls actualy it was just a floating huge hole. And on the other hand battleships and carriers and cruisers are to easy, sometimes with just one torpedo. Thats unrealistic. You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going.

However this can be modeled and fearly easy. The way the ships take damage is the same as in sh3. And there was a nice mod (NYGM) that made ships actualy flood and sink slowly (sometimes hours) and not just blow up like in stock.

Let me explain. There are two kinds of damage the ship can take in sh4. At first every ship has a certain amount of hit points. Every hit gain some of it. When it has no more hit points it takes critical damage meaning it blows up in big explosion and sinks very fast. The other kind of damage is flooding. When the ship has taken enough water it will sink (slowly) regardless of its hitpoints.

Now in stock SH4 most ships sink from critical (when they have no more hitpoints) actualy you almost never see a ship sinking from flooding. There is no balance between both damage types. Most ships are set at to slow flooding speed. In most cases they lose all hitpoints way earlier they are flooded criticaly.

NYGM Mod back in sh3 times gave all ships much more hitpoints. That caused ships sink from flooding only and took much longer. Im sure it can be modeled for sh4 in same way.

SteamWake · 07-05-07, 02:37 PM

I sank a carrier with one torpedo.

Ive posted about it before so I wont go into details but it happened.

C DuDe · 07-05-07, 02:46 PM

hmmmmf

Ok, this doesnt sound to good.

I remember in a post of SHIII that its best to break the vessel in 2 by having the torp blowup under the vessel instead of trying to punch it full of holes.

I dont know if you can set the torp's to magneto in this game (yes I'm just starting with this game) but if so *going to try this* punching a hole in the side and have a torp or 2 blow up just under the vessel should break the vessel in 2 and therefor should lower the amount of torps needed to sink a vessel.

SteamWake · 07-05-07, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by C DuDe

hmmmmf

Ok, this doesnt sound to good.

I remember in a post of SHIII that its best to break the vessel in 2 by having the torp blowup under the vessel instead of trying to punch it full of holes.

I dont know if you can set the torp's to magneto in this game (yes I'm just starting with this game) but if so *going to try this* punching a hole in the side and have a torp or 2 blow up just under the vessel should break the vessel in 2 and therefor should lower the amount of torps needed to sink a vessel.

Magnetic detonators are..... unreliable at this time.

-Pv- · 07-05-07, 09:42 PM

"You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going."

I've seen a lot of people make this statement but not true. We don't know what it would have taken to sink the Yamato because it was sunk by planes. The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler.

It's rare when I don't sink small-medium ships with one or at most two torps. Skill and technique play an important part as it should in any well made game.

-Pv-

TheSatyr · 07-05-07, 10:10 PM

1)Aircraft torpedoes were just sub torps modified for aircraft,same as surface ship torps. Which is why US torp bombers had a lousy time hitting anything early in the war.

2)I've said it before and I'll say it again.You CANNOT compare the Shinano to the Yamatos. The Shinano hadn't even been completed yet and was missing a number of water tight doors. And it was more than one torpedo. I would suggest reading a book called "Shinano". Tells the entire history of the Shinano from keel laying to sinking. And it heavily criticizes the High Command for ever sending her out to sea to begin with.

The Taiho went down with just one torp hit,but that was due to the stupidity of her Captain. There were heavy gas fumes in part of the ship so he "vented" the ship. It dissapated the gas fumes alright. Turned the entire ship into a floating bomb that just needed one spark to set off...and that's exactly what happened. In the end,the Captain sunk his own ship. All the torp did was cause minor damage.

bill clarke · 07-05-07, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

"You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going."

I've seen a lot of people make this statement but not true. We don't know what it would have taken to sink the Yamato because it was sunk by planes. The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler.

It's rare when I don't sink small-medium ships with one or at most two torps. Skill and technique play an important part as it should in any well made game.

-Pv-

Hmm, not entirely correct mate.
HMS Barham was sunk with 3 torp hits and lsted over to port and exploded all within about 8 minutes IIRC, HMS Eagle (CV) was sunk with I think 3 as well.
Kongo, was sunk with only 3 or 4 I think as well.
The first 2 torp hits Yamato did nothing to slow her , she kept going as if nothing had happened, however the Americans concentrated on her port side, she was hit by at least 12 torps in the end. WRT Shinnano, she was no where near battle ready, having civillian tecnicians still on board, and was not in a "buttoned up"" state.
The annoying feature WRT freighters staying afloat is thet they should go down quickly, they do not have the damage control capacity of a warship, nor the structural integrity I know though that there are many varialbles to this, the one most annoying feature for me, with SHIII was the fact that fire did not seem to affect the ship when in reality, it was a lethal menace not having played SHIV I can not comment if the devs fixed this problem.
One way to fix this is to have AI crew on the vessels, carrying out damage control and make them subject to being killed, by fire , drowning, and explosions, cause it's unrealistic to assume that no damage control measures would be taken to save a ship, a good example is the IJN Shokaku, after she was torpedoed (3 hits) her damage control parties were making headway, and it seemed she might be saved, unfortunately the fires touched off torps and bombs, and doomed her completley.

C DuDe · 07-06-07, 06:04 AM

yup, noticed that about the magnetic torp's... ohh well... as long as I get my quote of tonnage at the end of a mission i'll be happy

WernerSobe · 07-06-07, 09:53 AM

im working on a mod that will make ships sink much more likely by flooding then by destroying its overall hit points. Flooding already works. All sinkings are a lot slower now and you can sink ships by hiting them once and making them run full, it just takes time. Even destroyed and evacuated ships wont disappear in few seconds it takes 5 minutes up to one hour, depending on its size and cargo types. Some ship will also flip over and keep on surface down under and will require few shots with deck gun. Another will sink over the bow and keep swimming like a kork with its stern sticking out of water.

What i still have to improve now is the amount of overall hitpoints and find the right balance. So you dont feel like small ships are to strong and big ones to weak.

so heads up for the near feature.

SteamWake · 07-06-07, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by -Pv-

"You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going."

I've seen a lot of people make this statement but not true. We don't know what it would have taken to sink the Yamato because it was sunk by planes. The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler.

It's rare when I don't sink small-medium ships with one or at most two torps. Skill and technique play an important part as it should in any well made game.

-Pv-

Not all true...

The yamato was struck by around a dozen M14 torpedoes (fired from destoyers) and several 1,000 lb bombs.

At that point she rolled on her side but was still afloat. She did not go down untill her powder magazine lit off and literally split her in two.

So she was indeed designed to take some torpedo damage and keep on sailing.

STEED · 07-06-07, 01:46 PM

The problem in SH4 is this the renown you want the points you got to make sure enemy ships sink. A damaged ship is not good enough if you sail off you will get zero renown, that's why I hate the stupid system.

WernerSobe · 07-06-07, 03:08 PM

thats realistic tho. Tonnage was only scored to subs that have observed their victims sinking. In some cases the subs were forced to dive before they could see the results of their attack. Even if they killed something they didnt get the tonnage. Damaged ships were not scored at all because they were repaired and back on see someday anyway.

SteamWake · 07-06-07, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by STEED

The problem in SH4 is this the renown you want the points you got to make sure enemy ships sink. A damaged ship is not good enough if you sail off you will get zero renown, that's why I hate the stupid system.

You should get at least some points for disrupting a convoy.

07-05-07, 10:48 AM	#1
SingeDebile Seaman Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 33 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	in response to alot of "used too many torps to sink a boat" threads first, this is not to say that sometimes this is can be true (its taking a seemingly un natural number of torp hits to sink a ship), especially if you take into account that tanker ships are never actually full of oil for example. I think we tend to expect ships to sink too quickly (which is encouraged by the ultra speedy sink animation), that after they get mortally hit with a torp they should sink instantly. If you let a wounded ship float for a while it will often end up sinking all its own. But we dont have time for that, we charge into a convoy and expect to sink them all in one swoop. Realistically it could take hours for a ship to sink.... so even if it doesnt after the first couple hits then let it sit there for a while... watch it get lower and lower in the water or list more and more... or even just tell yourself you giving the men aboard the option of getting off in time. __________________ animal kingdom phylum

07-05-07, 09:42 PM	#7
-Pv- The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 1,434 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	"You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going." I've seen a lot of people make this statement but not true. We don't know what it would have taken to sink the Yamato because it was sunk by planes. The same hull converted into an aircraft carrier was sunk with one torp. Six were fired and hit, one penetrated hitting a support beam and forcing the beam through a boiler. It's rare when I don't sink small-medium ships with one or at most two torps. Skill and technique play an important part as it should in any well made game. -Pv- Last edited by -Pv-; 07-05-07 at 10:01 PM.

07-06-07, 01:46 PM	#13
STEED Lucky Jack Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Down Town UK Posts: 27,695 Downloads: 89 Uploads: 48	The problem in SH4 is this the renown you want the points you got to make sure enemy ships sink. A damaged ship is not good enough if you sail off you will get zero renown, that's why I hate the stupid system. __________________ Dr Who rest in peace 1963-2017. To borrow Davros saying...I NAME YOU CHIBNALL THE DESTROYER OF DR WHO YOU KILLED IT!

07-05-07, 02:02 PM	#3
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Indeed sinkings are not realistic. In my opinion small and medium cargo ships take to much. Ive seen a 3000 tons vessel eating 6 torps and keep going. There was not much left from its sidewalls actualy it was just a floating huge hole. And on the other hand battleships and carriers and cruisers are to easy, sometimes with just one torpedo. Thats unrealistic. You cannot kill a battleship like yamato with 4 torpedoes. These ships can take a lot and i mean a lot more, after all they are designed to take torpedoes and keep going. However this can be modeled and fearly easy. The way the ships take damage is the same as in sh3. And there was a nice mod (NYGM) that made ships actualy flood and sink slowly (sometimes hours) and not just blow up like in stock. Let me explain. There are two kinds of damage the ship can take in sh4. At first every ship has a certain amount of hit points. Every hit gain some of it. When it has no more hit points it takes critical damage meaning it blows up in big explosion and sinks very fast. The other kind of damage is flooding. When the ship has taken enough water it will sink (slowly) regardless of its hitpoints. Now in stock SH4 most ships sink from critical (when they have no more hitpoints) actualy you almost never see a ship sinking from flooding. There is no balance between both damage types. Most ships are set at to slow flooding speed. In most cases they lose all hitpoints way earlier they are flooded criticaly. NYGM Mod back in sh3 times gave all ships much more hitpoints. That caused ships sink from flooding only and took much longer. Im sure it can be modeled for sh4 in same way.

07-05-07, 02:37 PM	#4
SteamWake Rear Admiral Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 13,224 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	I sank a carrier with one torpedo. Ive posted about it before so I wont go into details but it happened.

07-05-07, 02:46 PM	#5
C DuDe Ensign Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 229 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	hmmmmf Ok, this doesnt sound to good. I remember in a post of SHIII that its best to break the vessel in 2 by having the torp blowup under the vessel instead of trying to punch it full of holes. I dont know if you can set the torp's to magneto in this game (yes I'm just starting with this game) but if so going to try this punching a hole in the side and have a torp or 2 blow up just under the vessel should break the vessel in 2 and therefor should lower the amount of torps needed to sink a vessel.

07-05-07, 10:10 PM	#8
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	1)Aircraft torpedoes were just sub torps modified for aircraft,same as surface ship torps. Which is why US torp bombers had a lousy time hitting anything early in the war. 2)I've said it before and I'll say it again.You CANNOT compare the Shinano to the Yamatos. The Shinano hadn't even been completed yet and was missing a number of water tight doors. And it was more than one torpedo. I would suggest reading a book called "Shinano". Tells the entire history of the Shinano from keel laying to sinking. And it heavily criticizes the High Command for ever sending her out to sea to begin with. The Taiho went down with just one torp hit,but that was due to the stupidity of her Captain. There were heavy gas fumes in part of the ship so he "vented" the ship. It dissapated the gas fumes alright. Turned the entire ship into a floating bomb that just needed one spark to set off...and that's exactly what happened. In the end,the Captain sunk his own ship. All the torp did was cause minor damage.

07-06-07, 06:04 AM	#10
C DuDe Ensign Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 229 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	yup, noticed that about the magnetic torp's... ohh well... as long as I get my quote of tonnage at the end of a mission i'll be happy

07-06-07, 09:53 AM	#11
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	im working on a mod that will make ships sink much more likely by flooding then by destroying its overall hit points. Flooding already works. All sinkings are a lot slower now and you can sink ships by hiting them once and making them run full, it just takes time. Even destroyed and evacuated ships wont disappear in few seconds it takes 5 minutes up to one hour, depending on its size and cargo types. Some ship will also flip over and keep on surface down under and will require few shots with deck gun. Another will sink over the bow and keep swimming like a kork with its stern sticking out of water. What i still have to improve now is the amount of overall hitpoints and find the right balance. So you dont feel like small ships are to strong and big ones to weak. so heads up for the near feature.

07-06-07, 03:08 PM	#14
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	thats realistic tho. Tonnage was only scored to subs that have observed their victims sinking. In some cases the subs were forced to dive before they could see the results of their attack. Even if they killed something they didnt get the tonnage. Damaged ships were not scored at all because they were repaired and back on see someday anyway.