[TEC] Guys I am having a brain fart need help with sun

leovampire · 08-25-07, 07:21 PM

Okay would 90 and -90 be when the sun is at it's highest point in the sky?

what I want to do is make it so the sun slowlystarts to look smaller as it rises in the sky seeing the point of size refference fades as it rises. And then have it go back to original size as it is setting.

I also want to do this with the moon.

Rather than resize them and still not have the proper effect.

Once I get this done I will be able to get the proper reflection effect's for the ocean and what not so help is apreciated.

sneekyzeke · 08-25-07, 07:32 PM

...so i don't know about the minus sign, but from horizon to horizon would be 180 degrees, so 90 would be half or "noon".

leovampire · 08-25-07, 07:36 PM

#1 is set at 90 and #13 is set at -90

So I guess I need to do it on 15 deg incrments and seeing 1 is full size I will have to do 1 for size on #6 #7 and #8 then reduce the size by 0.1 for each other state so that it is at it's smallest size at 90 deg.

Does that sound right?

The only thing that sucks is the moon's size dosn't seem to be adjustable so you can do the same thing with that.

tater · 08-25-07, 08:11 PM

The sun only looks bigger on the horizon because you have a reference to compare it to. It should be about 30 minutes of arc no matter where it is.

The moon should be about the same (which is why eclipses happen the way they do).

tater

leovampire · 08-25-07, 08:27 PM

relitive size as the sun tater?

tater · 08-25-07, 08:49 PM

Both are about 30 degrees of arc (~32 for the sun) (my astrophysics background has to be useful sometimes

)

Degrees are degrees are degrees. Their size doesn't change due to sky position.

tater

leovampire · 08-25-07, 09:12 PM

the game dosn't know how to render the effect we have in real life. We know the sun and moon look bigger when it is close to horizontal because there is a reference point to campair. And when it gets higher in altitude or angle if you want it seems to be smaller because that reference is now gone.

But the game dosn't know how to create that effect unless you teach it and so far the only way seems to be making it smaller as the sun changes angle in the sky. And then slowly resize it as it comes back down near the horizon again.

But they didn't make the same effect available for the moon it stays a constant which is a problem.

tater · 08-25-07, 09:27 PM

It will have some reference if you see it rise/set next to a reference---like a mountain, or a ship.

<shrug>

tater

leovampire · 08-25-07, 09:39 PM

If that were the case the game wouldn't have a set up for adjusting the size of the sun for each degree of altitude.

DirtyHarry3033 · 08-25-07, 09:45 PM

Well, just my opinion, it seems to me it's all an optical illusion as far as "apparent" size goes. True size of sun or moon of course don't change, and despite what people may think the atmosphere does not "magnify" either sun or moon when it's close to horizon.

What does happen with respect to the sun at sunset or sunrise, is all that intense light is being scattered thru a much thicker layer of atmosphere than when it's right overhead. And the light is more diffused. So the light "spreads out" more, if that makes sense, and it is possible to actually observe the sun's disc for a second or 2. Try looking directly at the sun at noon on a clear day, well you can't do it so you have no point for comparison!

The moon otoh, is like a candle in comparison to the sun's searchlight. You can look straight at it, as long as you like, no matter where it is. And there is very little light to get wildly scattered by that thicker layer of atmosphere when it rises or sets.

So anyway, the moon's size is more familiar. On land, when it rises or sets you have all kinds of familiar references to compare it to - buildings, trees, hills and so on. When it gets overhead your reference points are taken away and as a result it appears smaller.

But at sea, you don't have any of those reference points. Nothing but a flat, featureless horizon which is little better than the zenith of the sky. I've never been at sea on a clear night with a full moon rising, but I'd bet it wouldn't look much (if any) larger when rising than when it was right overhead...

DH

leovampire · 08-25-07, 09:55 PM

which has helped a bit I have been working with the size vs altitude and adjusting the halo effect's and angle of reflections vs the sun's relative angle in the sky and starting to come up with some nice effect's on the water and sub and ships.

So I guess the discussion helped a bit to get me thinking more and picture it in my mind enough to get it working better in the game.

Just slow going as I have to learn more about how the effect's work vs settings for the game. Gets a bit confusing when the game switch's to negative numbers as the sun goes over the absolute highest point so have to reverse thinking to negative numbers.

DirtyHarry3033 · 08-25-07, 10:12 PM

Leo you work too hard! You should just take a break and play the game for a while

Your work is appreciated though, I'm loving LBO 2.0 and begging for a storm so I can fully appreciate it. However virtual weather seems as un-cooperative as the real thing and I've been sailing for several days in a dead calm

Before I installed LBO 1.0, I had a patrol where I had nothing but 15 m/s winds and thunderstorms from the time I left port until I docked. Now I can't get a storm if I get down on my knees and beg for it!

Shouldn't be hard to get accustomed to the +90 -90 stuff, just think of the zenith as 0 degrees and it should all fall into place...

DH

leovampire · 08-25-07, 10:22 PM

Here is an example picture. I have been adjusting relative size vs angle hight and angle's of reflections and the halo fade effect's and more and this is what I have already come up with. Not perfect but will be soon enough! Also working with the reflections in the water vs the suns angles to get more realistic effects.

I may not know how to make dds files and images but I know how to work the environment
effects enough to make it is real as possable for everyone to enjoy DirtyHarry3033. Just need
to learn the in's and out's of the rest of the Scene file and I am getting there.

sneekyzeke · 08-25-07, 10:56 PM

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/obser...t/3305541.html#

scroll to bottom of page to use it.

leovampire · 08-25-07, 11:06 PM

but unfortunatly I havn't found any ajustments in the game that control date's vs angular possition and that is getting into the longitude and latitude views and that dosn't come into play in the game at all. You could be anywhere in the ocean and see the same effects where as in real life you possition make's a difference vs what you see.

Like for example in real life doing a patrol in the upper part of the Bering Sea there wouldn't be as much day light time as there is every where else we normaly patrol but the game isn't set up to simulate that.

Maybe some time in the future the games will be that accurate.

Thanks for the info anyways.

08-25-07, 07:32 PM	#2
sneekyzeke Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Sweet State, Georgia Posts: 134 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	Dunno how the coordinates are expressed... ...so i don't know about the minus sign, but from horizon to horizon would be 180 degrees, so 90 would be half or "noon".

08-25-07, 07:36 PM	#3
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	there are a total of 13 sky states available #1 is set at 90 and #13 is set at -90 So I guess I need to do it on 15 deg incrments and seeing 1 is full size I will have to do 1 for size on #6 #7 and #8 then reduce the size by 0.1 for each other state so that it is at it's smallest size at 90 deg. Does that sound right? The only thing that sucks is the moon's size dosn't seem to be adjustable so you can do the same thing with that. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

08-25-07, 08:27 PM	#5
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	so your sugestion is to make the moon the same relitive size as the sun tater? __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

08-25-07, 09:39 PM	#9
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	we will not the game If that were the case the game wouldn't have a set up for adjusting the size of the sun for each degree of altitude. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

08-25-07, 09:55 PM	#11
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	well while we have been doing this little talk which has helped a bit I have been working with the size vs altitude and adjusting the halo effect's and angle of reflections vs the sun's relative angle in the sky and starting to come up with some nice effect's on the water and sub and ships. So I guess the discussion helped a bit to get me thinking more and picture it in my mind enough to get it working better in the game. Just slow going as I have to learn more about how the effect's work vs settings for the game. Gets a bit confusing when the game switch's to negative numbers as the sun goes over the absolute highest point so have to reverse thinking to negative numbers. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

08-25-07, 07:21 PM	#1
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	[WIP] New reflection effect's above and below water Okay would 90 and -90 be when the sun is at it's highest point in the sky? what I want to do is make it so the sun slowlystarts to look smaller as it rises in the sky seeing the point of size refference fades as it rises. And then have it go back to original size as it is setting. I also want to do this with the moon. Rather than resize them and still not have the proper effect. Once I get this done I will be able to get the proper reflection effect's for the ocean and what not so help is apreciated. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water Last edited by leovampire; 08-25-07 at 10:27 PM. Reason: because it is now a new project

08-25-07, 08:11 PM	#4
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	The sun only looks bigger on the horizon because you have a reference to compare it to. It should be about 30 minutes of arc no matter where it is. The moon should be about the same (which is why eclipses happen the way they do). tater

08-25-07, 08:49 PM	#6
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Both are about 30 degrees of arc (~32 for the sun) (my astrophysics background has to be useful sometimes ) Degrees are degrees are degrees. Their size doesn't change due to sky position. tater

08-25-07, 09:12 PM	#7
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	But tater the game dosn't know how to render the effect we have in real life. We know the sun and moon look bigger when it is close to horizontal because there is a reference point to campair. And when it gets higher in altitude or angle if you want it seems to be smaller because that reference is now gone. But the game dosn't know how to create that effect unless you teach it and so far the only way seems to be making it smaller as the sun changes angle in the sky. And then slowly resize it as it comes back down near the horizon again. But they didn't make the same effect available for the moon it stays a constant which is a problem. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

08-25-07, 09:27 PM	#8
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	It will have some reference if you see it rise/set next to a reference---like a mountain, or a ship. <shrug> tater

08-25-07, 09:45 PM	#10
DirtyHarry3033 Weps Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 351 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Well, just my opinion, it seems to me it's all an optical illusion as far as "apparent" size goes. True size of sun or moon of course don't change, and despite what people may think the atmosphere does not "magnify" either sun or moon when it's close to horizon. What does happen with respect to the sun at sunset or sunrise, is all that intense light is being scattered thru a much thicker layer of atmosphere than when it's right overhead. And the light is more diffused. So the light "spreads out" more, if that makes sense, and it is possible to actually observe the sun's disc for a second or 2. Try looking directly at the sun at noon on a clear day, well you can't do it so you have no point for comparison! The moon otoh, is like a candle in comparison to the sun's searchlight. You can look straight at it, as long as you like, no matter where it is. And there is very little light to get wildly scattered by that thicker layer of atmosphere when it rises or sets. So anyway, the moon's size is more familiar. On land, when it rises or sets you have all kinds of familiar references to compare it to - buildings, trees, hills and so on. When it gets overhead your reference points are taken away and as a result it appears smaller. But at sea, you don't have any of those reference points. Nothing but a flat, featureless horizon which is little better than the zenith of the sky. I've never been at sea on a clear night with a full moon rising, but I'd bet it wouldn't look much (if any) larger when rising than when it was right overhead... DH

08-25-07, 10:12 PM	#12
DirtyHarry3033 Weps Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 351 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Leo you work too hard! You should just take a break and play the game for a while Your work is appreciated though, I'm loving LBO 2.0 and begging for a storm so I can fully appreciate it. However virtual weather seems as un-cooperative as the real thing and I've been sailing for several days in a dead calm Before I installed LBO 1.0, I had a patrol where I had nothing but 15 m/s winds and thunderstorms from the time I left port until I docked. Now I can't get a storm if I get down on my knees and beg for it! Shouldn't be hard to get accustomed to the +90 -90 stuff, just think of the zenith as 0 degrees and it should all fall into place... DH

08-25-07, 10:22 PM	#13
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	actualy it is comming along already Here is an example picture. I have been adjusting relative size vs angle hight and angle's of reflections and the halo fade effect's and more and this is what I have already come up with. Not perfect but will be soon enough! Also working with the reflections in the water vs the suns angles to get more realistic effects. I may not know how to make dds files and images but I know how to work the environment effects enough to make it is real as possable for everyone to enjoy DirtyHarry3033. Just need to learn the in's and out's of the rest of the Scene file and I am getting there. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water

08-25-07, 10:56 PM	#14
sneekyzeke Electrician's Mate Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: The Sweet State, Georgia Posts: 134 Downloads: 44 Uploads: 0	Would this help you Leo? http://www.skyandtelescope.com/obser...t/3305541.html# scroll to bottom of page to use it.

08-25-07, 11:06 PM	#15
leovampire Eternal Patrol Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Waterbury, CT. USA Posts: 2,336 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	thanks sneekyzeke but unfortunatly I havn't found any ajustments in the game that control date's vs angular possition and that is getting into the longitude and latitude views and that dosn't come into play in the game at all. You could be anywhere in the ocean and see the same effects where as in real life you possition make's a difference vs what you see. Like for example in real life doing a patrol in the upper part of the Bering Sea there wouldn't be as much day light time as there is every where else we normaly patrol but the game isn't set up to simulate that. Maybe some time in the future the games will be that accurate. Thanks for the info anyways. __________________ AIR_BASE_NAV_MAP_MOD Reflections_on_the_Water