New game: "Who dropped the missile"?

[geetrue]

Okay, who dropped the dog gone missile?

http://edition.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/eu...sile.row.reut/

Russia or is Georgia lying?

True or false:

True ... Russia dropped the missile

False ... Russia did not drop the mssile


"Experts from the United States, Sweden, Latvia and Lithuania said their investigation showed that a plane from Russia was responsible. But Churkin said this group made no effort to get in touch with Russian experts."

"Experts from those countries identified the missile as the Russian-designed KH-58 and said that the Georgian air force did not have aircraft equipped with, or able to, launch KH-58 missiles."

[CCIP]

Who has better reasons to drop the missile I ask?

To me, Georgia which is actively trying to find an excuse to breach UN-imposed ceasefires in Abkhazia and South Ossetia and prevent them from gaining [formal] independence has far more reasons to discredit or provoke their main obstacle in this endeavour - Russia. Needless to say, for them anything is a great opportunity to raise a fuss. They've been caught lying and making intentional provocations before. I don't see any reason to believe them again, especially given how blatantly and openly anti-Russian their present government is.

Russia meanwhile has no reason to try and provoke Georgia that I can see. However there is one possibility they'd be covering this up: the missile was intended for a Chechen militant hiding in Georgia. In which case hey. Do I feel bad for it? No I don't. I don't see America having any reservations about using their missiles on Al Quaeda in Yemen or Somalia on occasion :hmm:


At the least, spare me the jazz on Georgia being a poor democratic underdog under Russia's thumb. The country is ruled by a bunch of sorry-ass nationalists who've done their share of dirty work actively suppressing ethnic minorities on their territory and would do it again if given the chance. They constantly spew out threats and the ruling party has been actively pushing out anyone with remotely moderate views from their ranks. America seems to want them for a friend, of course, because these guys (and gals) hate Russia's guts.

[fatty]

Originally Posted by CCIP

Who has better reasons to drop the missile I ask?

To me, Georgia which is actively trying to find an excuse to breach UN-imposed ceasefires in Abkhazia and South Ossetia and prevent them from gaining [formal] independence has far more reasons to discredit or provoke their main obstacle in this endeavour - Russia. Needless to say, for them anything is a great opportunity to raise a fuss. They've been caught lying and making intentional provocations before. I don't see any reason to believe them again, especially given how blatantly and openly anti-Russian their present government is.

Russia meanwhile has no reason to try and provoke Georgia that I can see. However there is one possibility they'd be covering this up: the missile was intended for a Chechen militant hiding in Georgia. In which case hey. Do I feel bad for it? No I don't. :hmm:

Spoken like a true Russian.

[CCIP]

Yea. I don't feel bad about it though. Mind you, I've done reasearch from multiple perspectives on this and did quite a bit of reading on the Georgian-Abkhaz war. One of the least known and dirtiest (not just on one side, either) little wars of the past couple of decades, shame it's hardly ever remembered when it comes to assessing where Georgia is today.
I should also qualify that I love Georgians as people, known many great specimens from there, but their government lately is just insane...

[bookworm_020]

Pity you din't put a couple of other options in, like

Maybe: America planted it!

Possible: It was done by terrorists!

Awaiting the resulst to be posted by CSI: To early to tell

Bored: Who cares!

[The Avon Lady]

Somewhat OT: It was a missile! No it wasn't!

[Dmitry Markov]

Agreed with CCIP ! Georgians and Russians have been closest friends for centuries and now Saakashvili's regime makes all to ruin this friendship. This missile argue is totally a farce - just look at the staff of their "independent" comission - all Anti-Russian coalition with its full complement: USA, Latvia, Lithuania and so on... :rotfl:
(We could include Venezuela and India on our side ) Georgians have destroyed for incomprehensible reasons the middle part of "missile" just before our experts arrival. And there were inscriptions in foreign languages on the parts shown to our experts which absolutely cannot belong to russian weapons as we do not use any foreign supply parts in construction of our armaments.

Think there was no plane, no drops at all - just a piece of scrap metall and huge clownish ego of Saacashvili's who dreams of our peacemakers to leave South Osetia and Abhazia to his power and mr Bush's politics of surrounding Russia with unfriendly states to control us. What would happen to this small nations if we'll leave I cannot imagine. But definitely it would be bloody war because this peoples (so as Georgians) would fight for what they think is a question of their survival as nations.

As for Georgia, I hope it would come to time when they would have government less relying upon foreign donations. They have much to give to the world on thier own hand - their potential in field of tourism is huge! If they were less concentrated on making "Great Georgia" they could become good concurent to Mediterranean countries on that. Their ancient culture, their nature, thier wine and their cuisine.... If only they could find way to live as friends with us and their neighbours... Personally I know many Georgians and Abhazians and Osetians and they all are absolutely adequate people. So for me its very sad state of affairs between us all. It was popular during er... Peresroika to criticize severly everything concerning our Soviet past, but looking back from where we are now that life had its advantages one of those was that Soviet Union system didn't allow international hostility to raise until late 80's. And a lot of russians now remember those days as living like one family. I cannot say for other CCCP peoples though, but I have spoken to Ukrainians, Belorussians, even Lithuanians and Georgians and those persons whom I have spoken to feel the same about our past.

Best Regards

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

Agreed with CCIP ! Georgians and Russians have been closest friends for centuries and now Saakashvili's regime makes all to ruin this friendship.

Pardon me but from what I recall, Russia forced Georgian annexation 200 years ago.

And 80 years ago, Georgia's attempt at independence was quashed by a Russian Communist military defeat and the installation of a puppet government.

What a way to may "friends"!

[Dmitry Markov]

AL maybe you have strange sources of information - Georgia has on its own free will joined Russian Empire. The main reason for that was threat of Iran Invasion and - very important thing those days - Georgians are orthodoxes as Russians so it was logical that smaller orthodoxal people joins the larger beyond the face of mutual foe. Leading role in this process was played by Georgian colony in Moscow. Later Georgian tzar Vakhtang VI have found shelter in Russia during Turkish attacks. In 1795 Iran's shah Aga Magomet-khan invaded Georgia and ruined Tbilisi - it was reason for Russia to join the war against Persia as we had Georgievsky traktat with Kartli (the way Georgia was named that days). Pavel I signed Georgia's entrance in Russia by will of dying Georgy XII.

Joining Russian Empire saved Georgian nation from genocide and assimilation by neighbour islamic states.

As for Soviet Union - there was a lot of support to Union and communism in Georgia itself. RKKA could not have defeated Georgian mensheviks without it. The fact is not only Russians were communists - its not like Russians conquered Georgia - there was great amount of communists among Georgians too and they prooved to be more power-willing than others. Besides, being caught behind two evils - communists and Turks (that began invasive actions at the same time) Georgians chose the lesser. It was not affair of hostility between of our nations but unhappy concurrence of circumstances which lead to rising of communist regime in our countries. During the Soviet period Georgians and some other Caucasian peoples (like Chechens) were the richest among other nations of CCCP. Oh what we are talking about - wasn't Stalin Georgian ? Or wasn't Beria Georgian? Or wasn't Orjonikidze Georgian? And all of them were the Soviet (and Russian) communist leaders at the same time.
Things are much more complicated than just Russians-bad /Georgians- innocent and good.
Ask any Georgian Veteran of WWII (or Great Patriotic War as we and Georgians call it). He won't say you that he fought only because bolsheviks told him to and it was bloody nkvd's agent behind his back when he looked at the Hitler's tanks from his tranche (as Saacashvili would like him to tell ).
Try to read something not so ... Saacashvilish
Sorry for being so verbose...

Best Regards

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Dmitry Markov

AL maybe you have strange sources of information - Georgia has on its own free will joined Russian Empire. The main reason for that was threat of Iran Invasion and - very important thing those days - Georgians are orthodoxes as Russians so it was logical that smaller orthodoxal people joins the larger beyond the face of mutual foe. Leading role in this process was played by Georgian colony in Moscow. Later Georgian tzar Vakhtang VI have found shelter in Russia during Turkish attacks. In 1795 Iran's shah Aga Magomet-khan invaded Georgia and ruined Tbilisi - it was reason for Russia to join the war against Persia as we had Georgievsky traktat with Kartli (the way Georgia was named that days). Pavel I signed Georgia's entrance in Russia by will of dying Georgy XII.

Wikipedia

Encarta

[Dmitry Markov]

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%98%...B7%D0%B8%D0%B8

Non-Saacashvilish article in Wikipedia (If you cannot read Russian - try to use any translator programm if it would be at interest to you)
In fact, today most of articles about Georgia written in English are very pro-Saacashvilish. If you cannot read between the lines - you'll never find the truth. Saacashvili's guys would tell you our army was withdrawn in 1795 but they don't tell you that Russia returned to Georgia territories conquered by Turks. They'll tell you that Russians have treated Georgians badly in period of early 1800's but they won't remind you about Bagration - the famous Russian general, Georgian by nationality who willingly fought against Napoleon despite this. They won't remind you of Georgians who fought on our side against Cherkeses, Chechens, Turks and other foes. And again - actions of authorities not always display feelings of people as I may assure you Russian people always looked at other orthodoxal peoples as brothers (even Ethiopian). If some officers and officials had no rules it doesn't mean they represented will of the whole nation. The same officers and officials inflicted harm to their own Russian farmers and non-gentry people - I mean that's all about concrete person's crimes and not about nation's feelings.

As I've said - things are much more complicated than it may seem. Learn to read between the lines - this is the mastery we've all learned well here in former CCCP during Soviet period

As for the second URL - I cannot see any incorrespondence with my words. Communism was our mutual weight to carry.

And again about friendship - part of my family lives in Sochi - very close to the Abhazian border. In Soviet days there lived a lot of Georgians too. And all of peoples - Georgians, Russians and Abhazes were in good relations. Or at least there was no open hostility between Georgians and Abhazes. My grandmother's name is Tamara - her parents gave her this name in honour of Georgian Queen Tamar in spite they were Russian cossaks. She graduated in Tbilisi and has a lot of Georgian friends - she even can speak Georgian .

Best Regards again

[CCIP]

I'd also like to point out that Georgia is a Christian nation surrounded by primarily Muslim peoples that really, really don't like Georgians. An exception to that is christian Armenia, but they also aren't Georgia's biggest fans. In that case Russia has always been a natural partner.

Economically also, as I said, Georgia has few friends in the region. Or anywhere. Ever see any Georgian peaches or wines on store shelves in America? I sure haven't. Russians actually appreciated these. At the same time, thousands and thousands of Georgians live and work in Russia (some illegally). Yet Russia has other sources of peaches, wine and illegal migrants...

My point is that the hostility for the Saakashvili faction to Russia makes no sense. It's like Mexico suddenly deciding to get really pissed at the US. Well, the US doesn't exactly have good economic ties with Cuba for instance, does it?

I don't think Putin wants to annex Georgia or limit their independence. In all honesty, as I said, Russia can get by just fine without Georgia. Let them go and mess themselves up. But I think it obviously puzzles everyone to see a natural partner get so overtly hostile. Especially when pretty much everyone else in the region has somehow worked it out. Armenia and Azerbaidzhan sure don't like each other and have plenty of outstanding geopolitical issues, but both have good relations with Russia nowadays, and Russian store shelves are full of Armenian wines and Azerbaidzhanian peaches.

Honestly, tell me: does Russia today need Georgia in its "empire"? Georgia can go fish, I think. I think I'm expressing most Russians' attitude, though, when I say I'm totally puzzled by how absurd and naive the Georgian position on world and regional affairs is.

And how obvious. It's clear as day (to me) they want Round 2's in the Abkhaz and Ossetian conflicts, but before that they need to discredit Russia and get the UN, Nato or even just Uncle Sam on their side. Seems they've heard about the whole "our sonovabitch" thing and decided to try out :hmm:

[geetrue]

Isn't it true, I heard this rumor, that Stalin was from Georgia
and that he wouldn't murder/kill anyone from Georgia for fear
that his mother would hear about it?

He didn't want to get his mother upset ...
now that is a real study in human psychology.

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by geetrue

Isn't it true, I heard this rumor, that Stalin was from Georgia
and that he wouldn't murder/kill anyone from Georgia for fear
that his mother would hear about it?

He didn't want to get his mother upset ...
now that is a real study in human psychology.

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

Reminds me of a book.

We once discussed here Mafioso's adoration for their mothers. It was Costra-Nostra-wide.

[CCIP]

Originally Posted by geetrue

Murder and purge millions, but not one from Georgia.

Where have you heard that? I assure you, Georgians have suffered as much as anyone under Stalin's rule.