[TEC] Question about a problem with sonar and possibly a mod [REQ]

Farinhir · 07-14-07, 09:59 AM

While I was sent to hunt around Honshu I noticed that the tactic of almost litterally sitting on the bottom (I was just barely on the seafloor which was about 160' below the surface) did not fool the enemy sonar. Their pinging should not be able to distiguish me from the floor as well as todays sonar can. Also, I was in place and waiting for a convoy to leave Yokohama bay hours before it would do so. My plan was to sit on the bottom of the sea and wait for the lead escorts to pass bye and then take out the convoy fast. The problem started when the 1st escort found me even though I was in silent mode, dead in the water, and should have been indistiguishable from the seafloor.

My questions are as follows.
1: Is this a bug or an inherent problem in the way the sonar mechanics are designed in silent hunter?

And

2: If it is an inherent problem is there a workaround or mod that might be able to fix it?

Then the possible request is this.
If there is a way to fix this, would someone be willing to take on this task? I am new to SH series and am not really one that can make mods that well at all. I am just getting the hang of editing the ini files (not really but faking it well enough so far). Sorry for this but I thought it might be worth a try.

Thanks,
~F~

P.S.
My 1st sub sim was a DOS game called 688 attack sub. I was surprised to find that this tactic worked as it should in that one but not this one. I am not meaning to complain, just stating that I was surprised. I think the makers of this game have done a nice job as far as I can tell as of yet.

YEH, I am a swabbie now!!!

@Moderators
Since this is the 1st time I have started a thread I am not sure if I did this wrong or not. Let me know of any problems or changes and I will take them to heart.

Sailor Steve · 07-14-07, 10:41 AM

Avoiding sonar by sitting on the bottom was also a feature of Aces Of the Deep. Of course in that sim it could lead to your getting stuck in the mud, and sometimes even dying there.

I too would like to see it in the SH series.

WernerSobe · 07-14-07, 11:19 AM

unfortunaly that is not modeled.

The range to the target and its depth are the only factors that are taken into account. There is nothing like ground echo that should make a detection more difficult. So sitting on the ground is no option.

There is also no easy way to mod it. Maybe there is a solution with some trick or workaround by using some other factors and turning them into floorecho. But that could be a long way.

Redwine · 07-14-07, 11:42 AM

It is like WernerSobe wrote...

There is not a real sonar system modelled in SH III or SH IV.

We have a some kind of "device" wich is replacing the sonar system in most situations but not always.

If you are into the detection cone, into the max min, angles, ranges, depth, heights.... you will be detected, affected by attenations as thermal layers, background noise, waves etc... but you always will be detected.

It is what we have.

As Sailor Steve wrote, will be nice to have those improvements modelled...

Modern sonars have troubles to detect a target into the sea floor, most sure in that age....

07-14-07, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

If you are into the detection cone, into the max min, angles, ranges, depth, heights.... you will be detected, affected by attenations as thermal layers, background noise, waves etc... but you always will be detected.

what about the thermal layer?

since it effects detection, my little brain thought about making a very strong thermal layer in shallow water to mask you if you sit on bottom. can this be done?

i assume the effect of the thermal layer is tweakable but can it be added to all sea floors?

this is certainly no fix but it would be about the best we could do with the game limitations.

also i noticed that as long as you dont move when starting a single mission game the sub is completely undetectable when submerged. i have had DD run right over me and i can change depth staying undetected until i engage my engine, then then are all over me. maybe this can be triggered to go in effect when you bottom your sub.

Redwine · 07-14-07, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redwine

If you are into the detection cone, into the max min, angles, ranges, depth, heights.... you will be detected, affected by attenations as thermal layers, background noise, waves etc... but you always will be detected.

what about the thermal layer?

since it effects detection, my little brain thought about making a very strong thermal layer in shallow water to mask you if you sit on bottom. can this be done?

i assume the effect of the thermal layer is tweakable but can it be added to all sea floors?

this is certainly no fix but it would be about the best we could do with the game limitations.

I am not sure Werner... but i think so not, the thermal layer is modelled as a plain horizontal boundary, and the sea floor is not like that. Is is a "inclined" (is it a correct english word ?) bank angle irregular surface, with climbing/descending variation... (sorry my bad english)

Quote:

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

also i noticed that as long as you dont move when starting a single mission game the sub is completely undetectable when submerged. i have had DD run right over me and i can change depth staying undetected until i engage my engine, then then are all over me. maybe this can be triggered to go in effect when you bottom your sub.

This is a legacy from SH III, there, the AI serach/hunt was triggered by an initial detection, they are not always searching for you up to they have an initial contact wich seems to trigger the hunt for you.

07-14-07, 02:26 PM

.[/quote]

This is a legacy from SH III, there, the AI serach/hunt was triggered by an initial detection, they are not always searching for you up to they have an initial contact wich seems to trigger the hunt for you.[/quote]

this trigger is what has my attention, what about a way to reset this detection? maybe if subs "depth below keel = 0"

during the game it resets so if the reset trigger were found it sounds like it could be possible.

Redwine · 07-14-07, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WEBSTER

this trigger is what has my attention, what about a way to reset this detection? maybe if subs "depth below keel = 0"

during the game it resets so if the reset trigger were found it sounds like it could be possible.

I dont know... i remember we fight against it during the SH III AI Sensors tweaks...

Farinhir · 07-14-07, 07:07 PM

Hmm,
Well. I thought it was a problem with the game mechanics. If someone does take on the project of trying to set this up let me know. I used to love doing this on the other sub game (especially when doing sub VS sub missions) and I think it would be a nice thing to be able to sit in ambush at the bottom just waiting for a convoy to start to pass over the sub. Maybe I should also try to address this on UBISOFT's forums and see if the devs can't come up with a fix.

thanks,
~F~

Edit: strike the line about UBISOFT from my statement. I don't recal my UBISOFT password and their system wont let me change it either so I can not post there right now.

Farinhir · 07-14-07, 08:48 PM

A thought. Maybe there would be a way to block active sonar if the depth below keel is less than 1 yard. I don't know. Hiding on the bottom should not effect passive sonar at all. Only active should be fooled. But a diesel running in silent mode with its engines off should not be able to be heard by passive sonar (nuclear subs have more ambient noise from their water pumps when running silent). The problem I had was that they were able to find where I was using active sonar. If we can make it so that if the keel is within a certain distance to the seafloor the active sonar stops working to locate the sub then I would be happy. I know it would not be realistic because the game AI would still know I am in the area but that would be a more difficult fix I would think. Well, there is my 2 cents.

~F~

07-14-07, 09:59 AM	#1
Farinhir Loader Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 89 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	[TEC] Question about a problem with sonar and possibly a mod [REQ] While I was sent to hunt around Honshu I noticed that the tactic of almost litterally sitting on the bottom (I was just barely on the seafloor which was about 160' below the surface) did not fool the enemy sonar. Their pinging should not be able to distiguish me from the floor as well as todays sonar can. Also, I was in place and waiting for a convoy to leave Yokohama bay hours before it would do so. My plan was to sit on the bottom of the sea and wait for the lead escorts to pass bye and then take out the convoy fast. The problem started when the 1st escort found me even though I was in silent mode, dead in the water, and should have been indistiguishable from the seafloor. My questions are as follows. 1: Is this a bug or an inherent problem in the way the sonar mechanics are designed in silent hunter? And 2: If it is an inherent problem is there a workaround or mod that might be able to fix it? Then the possible request is this. If there is a way to fix this, would someone be willing to take on this task? I am new to SH series and am not really one that can make mods that well at all. I am just getting the hang of editing the ini files (not really but faking it well enough so far). Sorry for this but I thought it might be worth a try. Thanks, ~F~ P.S. My 1st sub sim was a DOS game called 688 attack sub. I was surprised to find that this tactic worked as it should in that one but not this one. I am not meaning to complain, just stating that I was surprised. I think the makers of this game have done a nice job as far as I can tell as of yet. YEH, I am a swabbie now!!! @Moderators Since this is the 1st time I have started a thread I am not sure if I did this wrong or not. Let me know of any problems or changes and I will take them to heart.

07-14-07, 10:41 AM	#2
Sailor Steve Eternal Patrol Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: High in the mountains of Utah Posts: 50,369 Downloads: 745 Uploads: 249	Avoiding sonar by sitting on the bottom was also a feature of Aces Of the Deep. Of course in that sim it could lead to your getting stuck in the mud, and sometimes even dying there. I too would like to see it in the SH series. __________________ “Never do anything you can't take back.” —Rocky Russo

07-14-07, 11:42 AM	#4
Redwine Sea Lord Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: San Martin de los Andes, Neuquen, , Argentina. Posts: 1,962 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	It is like WernerSobe wrote... There is not a real sonar system modelled in SH III or SH IV. We have a some kind of "device" wich is replacing the sonar system in most situations but not always. If you are into the detection cone, into the max min, angles, ranges, depth, heights.... you will be detected, affected by attenations as thermal layers, background noise, waves etc... but you always will be detected. It is what we have. As Sailor Steve wrote, will be nice to have those improvements modelled... Modern sonars have troubles to detect a target into the sea floor, most sure in that age.... __________________ . "SH III and SH IV Mods" "Manual TDC Tutorial" "SH2 Downloads Selection" Last edited by Redwine; 07-14-07 at 05:58 PM.

07-14-07, 07:07 PM	#9
Farinhir Loader Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 89 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	Hmm, Well. I thought it was a problem with the game mechanics. If someone does take on the project of trying to set this up let me know. I used to love doing this on the other sub game (especially when doing sub VS sub missions) and I think it would be a nice thing to be able to sit in ambush at the bottom just waiting for a convoy to start to pass over the sub. Maybe I should also try to address this on UBISOFT's forums and see if the devs can't come up with a fix. thanks, ~F~ Edit: strike the line about UBISOFT from my statement. I don't recal my UBISOFT password and their system wont let me change it either so I can not post there right now. Last edited by Farinhir; 07-14-07 at 07:52 PM.

07-14-07, 11:19 AM	#3
WernerSobe Commodore Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 625 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	unfortunaly that is not modeled. The range to the target and its depth are the only factors that are taken into account. There is nothing like ground echo that should make a detection more difficult. So sitting on the ground is no option. There is also no easy way to mod it. Maybe there is a solution with some trick or workaround by using some other factors and turning them into floorecho. But that could be a long way.

07-14-07, 02:26 PM	#7
Webster Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	.[/quote] This is a legacy from SH III, there, the AI serach/hunt was triggered by an initial detection, they are not always searching for you up to they have an initial contact wich seems to trigger the hunt for you.[/quote] this trigger is what has my attention, what about a way to reset this detection? maybe if subs "depth below keel = 0" during the game it resets so if the reset trigger were found it sounds like it could be possible.

07-14-07, 08:48 PM	#10
Farinhir Loader Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 89 Downloads: 154 Uploads: 0	A thought. Maybe there would be a way to block active sonar if the depth below keel is less than 1 yard. I don't know. Hiding on the bottom should not effect passive sonar at all. Only active should be fooled. But a diesel running in silent mode with its engines off should not be able to be heard by passive sonar (nuclear subs have more ambient noise from their water pumps when running silent). The problem I had was that they were able to find where I was using active sonar. If we can make it so that if the keel is within a certain distance to the seafloor the active sonar stops working to locate the sub then I would be happy. I know it would not be realistic because the game AI would still know I am in the area but that would be a more difficult fix I would think. Well, there is my 2 cents. ~F~