Illegal immigrant labor bad or good for an economy?

[LoBlo]

Is a manual labor shortage good or bad for an economy?

One of the arguments (in the US) about the illegal Mexican immigrant controversy (about 1million illegal immigrants per year enter the US) is that they come here and are able to find work so easily because of the labor demands of our economy. We need carpenters, construction worker's, home service workers to build and provide cheap work.

... question is... so what? What IF their were no illegal immigrants to fill those positions and a relative "labor shortage" ensued. Seems like it would be good for an economy because it would drive the demand for 'artisan' and manual labor up and thus increase the wages of those positions. Increased wages means more people would pursue work in those spots (Americans) and it would help to provide more income to the less educated demographics of our society.... right?

Any budding economist/historians on the forums that can point to whether labor shortages/surplus are bad or good?

[Letum]

Not quite how it works.

If a labor vacuum forces wages up than exports become less profitable because they cost more to make and inflation rises. It can also cause business stagnation in some sectors as companies are forced to spend more on wages and less of development of their business. Some companies may even close if the market does not cover the cost of increased wages.

I'm not saying immigration in the US is a good thing as I know little about the US internal economy. However the assumption that forced wage increases = good for the economy is certainly not always the case.

Very, very generally speaking, a large workforce surplus is good for economies in the long term, but not always in the short term.
The ultimate cheep labor is slavery and that's why ancient Rome did so well. The next best thing is the vast amounts of cheep labor China has.

*edit* Be aware that I have simplified things very much here.

[Yahoshua]

A small labor shprtage would be good and would encourage legal immigration while ensuring that domestic Americans would not be forced out of their jobs by laborers who will be paid lower wages (which is what's happening right now).

Some people claim the economy is doing well, some that it isn't so well. In either case, if all illegal immigrants were to go back to their home countries and STAY there from today onward, there would be no crisis or shortage of manual labor.

Remember the strikes the illegals held a couple years ago? Mail was still delivered, stores were still open, carpets and floors were still cleaned, foods were still picked, everything continued as normal. Illegal immigrants are NOT essential to our economy. Even if they were, we have a healthy population of laborers and homeless here in the Unites States that would be more than willing to pick potatoes for a chance at starting onto the road for a better life.

[SUBMAN1]

It is actually terrible for the economy. Two years ago (It is worse by today), I saw the numbers out of Colorado. They spend over $1 Billion per year in support survices for illegals and nothing else. This includes everything from welfare to other state supported programs. This does not even include medical care, which is pretty much provided free for these people since they can't pay. No one could even put an estimate on this, but it rivals the states outpay, if not exceeds it.

So basically, they are killing the economy of a typical state like Colorado in which a $1 billion $ per year could be going to infrastructure to help improve the states productive growth. They are draining the medical system and forcing everyones insurance premiums through the roof. And they suck up jobs, specifically in the labor department from American workers who typically get paid more for the same job. Construction people are up in arms about these guys. An example is a contract manager can come in, hire these people, not provide insurance for them, pay them under the table so that the business doesn't have to pay tax on them, and then kick them out at the end of the day like nothing happened. How is the honest American contractor supposed to compete with this when he is constantly getting undercut for lower than his cost?

Before these illegal aliens were here, normal Americans did these jobs just fine. Life went on normal. It turns out it is actually the businesses that are at fault because they encourage it since it saves them considerable $$$ in labor costs - effectively putting normal Americans out of a job and into other fields because they can't compete - not even if they got paid the same amoutn as the mexicans - You can't pay the Americans under the table, so companies have to pay more still for the Americans ragardless.


Last but not least, Illegals have no interest into integrating into the American culture. They have no loyalty to the country, have no wish to learn more than basic English, learn anything, and I doubt they even want to stay here except to collect a paycheck and milk the system. One of the companies my father owns is a daycare business, and I've been out there to collect the money quite a few times. These Mexicans go in there, decked out in better clothes than you, and they talk about how many more children they can get because each one is a bigger welfare paycheck. The men don't want to get married to not only avoid getting a smaller welfare paycheck themsleves, but also to make sure the woman also gets a large check. The men also work the construction jobs under the table at the same time. Its all a game of money to them and they've got it worked.

Now if you integrate these people into our society, what exactly is going to change? Nothing! They will still do what they are doing, but have the threat of the gov off their back with possible deportation. They can do this stuff out in the open more. If you went as far as give them the right to vote, and all hell is going to break loose!

I could go on all day about this, but I think you can already see that Bush and his idea to let thes people stay is probably his worst idea since he has been in office. Add $10 to mine and everyone elses taxes in this country, and that should give them $3 Billion a year to deport these idiots. I think 10 years and $30 Billion should be plenty to get these people rounded up and out of our country before it is too late.

-S

[LoBlo]

One of the big themes that's always toted around regarding the American economy is the "growing disparity between the rich and the poor" in American. The divide between those that are rich and those that are poor is getting wider... so some claim. But that being said (and assuming that its true) then wouldn't one of the main causes of that widening be that influx of poor cheap laborers. If the labor market is flooded with illegal immigrants that work for nothing, and keep unskilled labor wages low, then how can the poorest demographics ever make up the difference? Seems like eliminating the competition, allowing a "labor shortage" and wages to raise would be one solution to the problem. Another way to look at it is that America absorbs 1million+ of the poorest Mexicans every year, so even if as a society we were successfully advancing 1million Americans up from the poverty line per year then it still won't make any headway because 1million+ more impoverished people just walk across the border...

I understand what your saying Letum. Businesses would face the brunt of a profit loss, and exports would decrease... but their's got to be some sortof national economic benifit to a higher paid blue collar demographic... right?

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

They have no loyalty to the country, have no wish to learn more than basic English, learn anything, and I doubt they even want to stay here except to collect a paycheck and milk the system. One of the companies my father owns is a daycare business, and I've been out there to collect the money quite a few times. These Mexicans go in there, decked out in better clothes than you, and they talk about how many more children they can get because each one is a bigger welfare paycheck. The men don't want to get married to not only avoid getting a smaller welfare paycheck themsleves, but also to make sure the woman also gets a large check. The men also work the construction jobs under the table at the same time. Its all a game of money to them and they've got it worked.

errr... illegal immigrants getting welfare? iirce you have to be a citizen to get welfare from what I understand.

[donut]

Although must speak positive, If the US.wants to be a good neighbor to Mexico,they first must be teach that one hand washes the other concept. That a man,to be trusted,must be as good as his word. Otherwise he is not even cheep labor,only poor trash.Borderland

[Iceman]

I swear I am no Einstien but to me it seems to solution is to make Mexico more "Profitable/or modern or whatever" it is that drives immigrants here...I am ashamed frankly at the lack of consolidated efforts by the US and Canada to secure North America as the most powerful continent in the world....we have the labor, we have resources....I don't understand why it is not realized that to move forward we can not move backwards...building a fence is ludacrus and insane and just retarded and a waste of money.....people want Pepsi Cola, New Homes,Safe Communites just as all humans do....seems to me the thing would be to turn Mexico into the place where people want to be and deal with the security issue from a North American perspective not an American one...last time I looked Canada and Mexico were democracies....we need to ensure that and foster it and reward it....otherwise what example are we setting....damn a wall....Tear Down The WALL....

[August]

Originally Posted by Iceman

.seems to me the thing would be to turn Mexico into the place where people want to be

Just how do you propose to that? By force? Should we go down there and round up all the crooked Mexican politicans, judges and administators and impose our laws and standards on them?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by LoBlo

errr... illegal immigrants getting welfare? iirce you have to be a citizen to get welfare from what I understand.

You do, but as you know, it is not hard for these people to get the proper documentation to support the welfare paperwork. Some of them will even ask what Social Security number you want, because they have 3 in their wallet.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by donut

Although must speak positive, If the US.wants to be a good neighbor to Mexico,they first must be teach that one hand washes the other concept. That a man,to be trusted,must be as good as his word. Otherwise he is not even cheep labor,only poor trash.Borderland

Yeah - try going into Mexico illegally and see what happens! That would be the first day of your own created hell! Instant prison. Beat to hell and back. Held for ransom even. Seems both sides should treat each other equally in my opinion!

-S

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by August

Just how do you propose to that? By force? Should we go down there and round up all the crooked Mexican and impose our laws and standards on them?

That is a cop out...

America should be spending at least 3 times as much time/money with it's neighbors than it is doing with other parts of the world....Canada and Mexico have a direct and immediate effect on what goes on here...

No need for force they are democracies already....yet ideas and ways need to be looked at to try to strengthen not "Build a Wall" against your neighbor....we need to "Deal" with it...period.

Mexico for as long as I have lived in Arizona has been to the south of me and it is not going anywhere soon me thinks...I have always looked at Mexico and Canada as friendly neighbors...possibly Canada and the U.S. should be hanging out with Mexico more than they are....Considering them an Equal and respecting them as a soverign nation that has much to offer instead of a just a nation of poor people or some B.S. like that...

Hey believe me I live in a border state here and see and work with lots of Mexican people.They are a proud and hard working people who have my respect.Times change...lifestyles change, the politics need to change as well and what worked yesterday obviously is no longer working but building a wall is absurd and reminds me of 1950's 60's cold war thinking....if it does'nt fit into some category or conform somehow...building a wall and trying to ignore the problem has proven not a wise course of action.I know you do not believe all Mexican politicans, judges and administators are corrupt and if you do I believe you are wrong.

[August]

Originally Posted by Iceman

That is a cop out...

America should be spending at least 3 times as much time/money with it's neighbors than it is doing with other parts of the world....Canada and Mexico have a direct and immediate effect on what goes on here...

No need for force they are democracies already....yet ideas and ways need to be looked at to try to strengthen not "Build a Wall" against your neighbor....we need to "Deal" with it...period.

Mexico for as long as I have lived in Arizona has been to the south of me and it is not going anywhere soon me thinks...I have always looked at Mexico and Canada as friendly neighbors...possibly Canada and the U.S. should be hanging out with Mexico more than they are....Considering them an Equal and respecting them as a soverign nation that has much to offer instead of a just a nation of poor people or some B.S. like that...

Hey believe me I live in a border state here and see and work with lots of Mexican people.They are a proud and hard working people who have my respect.Times change...lifestyles change, the politics need to change as well and what worked yesterday obviously is no longer working but building a wall is absurd and reminds me of 1950's 60's cold war thinking....if it does'nt fit into some category or conform somehow...building a wall and trying to ignore the problem has proven not a wise course of action.I know you do not believe all Mexican politicans, judges and administators are corrupt and if you do I believe you are wrong.

Well we're not building a wall along the Canadian border, nor is there a movement there to annex parts of the US (Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and parts of California) and nor is the wall to keep people in, ala the Berlin wall.

Seriously, throwing money at a problem is not going to solve anything and anything else we do is going to be seen by them as interfering in the soverignty of a foreign nation, so what do you expect we do?

[Heibges]

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/06/12/Dob...e13/index.html

Lou pretty much hammers the President. President Bush seems beseiged on all fronts at this point.

And now we have 20,000,013 Illegal Immigrants to round up.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n2925436.shtml

[FIREWALL]

Where will we get are lettuce from ? :hmm:

I don't even do my own yard work.

[Heibges]

It's true that our agriculture system is messed up.

First we had the creation of "suburbia" after WWII, reversing a trend of hundreds of years of urbanization. It is sick how much rich farmland we have destroyed.

Then the loss of the small family farm, and the growth of the large corporate farms definitely did not help.

On small farms, you make your kids and your neighbors kids do the harvesting for free.

I'm not sure who they would get to do the harvesting in the Southern California.

And you don't just wake up one day and decide to be farmer. You are born into it, and this is another reason the loss of so many family farms was so sad.