Two evasive questions

[MarkShot]

(1) Can you pick up speed without being detected for X minutes after a DC attack or must you stay silent/2kts?

(2) If only one escort is close and it goes active, then can you pick up speed safely? (I read that the AI can only focus on either active or passive at any moment.)

Thanks.

[Puster Bill]

And here are two evasive answers:

1. Maybe.
2. Possibly

Actually, #2 is true: They can either ping, or listen, but they can't do both at the same time.

As for #1, it all depends. I don't really *WANT* to know the answer, as it might be possible to exploit that knowledge.

I've read that in real life there was a 15-minute window after the DC exploded where the sea was just too disturbed for active or passive contact to be made by the escorts. This gave the u-boats a little time to slip away.

I don't thinks this is modded into the game but if it is, it's probably no greater than 15 to 30-seconds.

[TarJak]

I never hit flank for more than 30 seconds after the last DC explodes before going back to silent running.

The AI can only do one thing at a time, listen or ping never both together. Not sure if when there are two or more escorts searching for you whether the ones not pinging are listening. I assume they are and therefore only go silent unless a Dc run is in progress. One technique particularly if the DD sounds close is to hit flank before the first DC is dropped letting you get up to a reasonable speed, then turning no more than 10 degrees rudder left or right depending on instinct then leaving the flank run until the last DC explodes then counting 30 secs before slowing down again.

[Jimbuna]

30 seconds...tops...even less if they're turning toward you

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by MarkShot

(1) Can you pick up speed without being detected for X minutes after a DC attack or must you stay silent/2kts?

(2) If only one escort is close and it goes active, then can you pick up speed safely? (I read that the AI can only focus on either active or passive at any moment.)

Thanks.

In answer to Q#1= This depends on how long you stay in the escort's baffles. In RL the white noise/bubbles from a single depth charge could ruin local sound acoustics for up to ten minutes. This is not modelled in SH3. Depth charge bubbles after a time, can even warp ASDIC contact... creating ghost contacts. This is also not modelled in SH3.

In answer to Q#2= Just because an escort/ASW asset goes "active" does not mean he has acquired you... ergo you can pick up speed with caution, but as in real life, the more noise you make... the more likely he is to detect you. This is a question that cannot be answered more directly. Besides, what is the fun in knowing the answer to every situation? Your surviveability becomes certain... and boring when you know the outcome in advance... In real life, this was something U-boat commander had to guess and gamble on.

To answer another of your questions, I've seen no indication that opening bow caps in the presence of nearby ASW forces in SH3... triggers any sort of response.

I hope I am wrong, but I am beginning to perhaps see a pattern here where you are either disparaging SH3 and/or GWX in relation to AOTD. What you must understand, is that the AI itself cannot be altered as it is hard coded... SH3 modders can only alter the AI's perceptions of its environment. The ASW modding knowledge pool for SH3 was built over months of difficult trial and error. Largely, the accumulated knowledge can be found on the sticky thread regarding "Uber AI Demystified" above.

The engine of each game has its advantages and disadvantages (not speaking of sound and graphics)

To answer a question you asked from another thread, "Was GWX's AI altered for the sake of challenge?" The answer is no. I mean no offense, but If your comparison's used the scientific method, and had begun with stock SH3... I think the improvements that GWX arguably introduces, may present you with a clearer picture of where we are versus where SH3 started. Modifications to GWX AI sensors were made with the intent to produce historically plausible situations and outcomes, to the best of our abilities... within an entire series of game and code limitations. Increased challenge to the player though, was a predictable side effect of modding the enemy AI sensors.

The AI should punish dumb mistakes... In stock SH3 escorts/DD's/AI response is boneheaded and thick beyond belief IMHO... allowing total distruction of convoys and taskforces with virtually no risk to the player.

For those claiming that GWX AI response is overly harsh... Horse-muffins! :p It is most certainly surviveable assuming you are willing to give up bad habits... like watching torpedo detonations... target fixation... or slugging it out with aircraft... surface attacks in broad daylight... running flank continuously while underwater in the presence of AI... Read "The U-boat Commander's Handbook" and you will survive to the end of the war if you wish to run an unrealistic 54 patrols!

One thing that we cannot change as well, is the experience base of the player... as it does not reduce with your simulated "death." There is no way to properly simulate U-boat warfare in any game... we can only approximate it. The player will always learn from a simulated death.

It is a good thing for us. When you die in SH3... you live to count rivets another day. You do not drown, or have to abandon ship, or be taken prisoner... You get to fight another day and carry the experience... and the desire to become a better U-boat captain.

Speaking for GWX, if you aren't happy with the AI response... feel free to find a mod that is good for you. You are entitled to your opinion... and your interpretation of how data might be interpreted into game code. The enemy AI in GWX though, is what it is.

Months were tuning the ASW sensors in GWX... and months of code crunching, spent isolating sensors, determining their limits and "signal strength" at various ranges, and and interpretation (often leading to dead ends... you can't just plug in real life data and expect life-like results in SH3) preceeded the gradual changes and testing. From the original GW to GWX it continued to evolve. I'd rather have all my teeth pulled out with rusty pliers and no anesthetic, than to revisit it again!

Is it perfect? Of course not. I don't think any mod's ASW arrangement or sensors modification is perfect... nor do I feel that we have anything to be ashamed of. It does the job quite nicely IMHO. On full realism, it certainly cuts down on 500,000 ton single patrols by players... The GWX dev team made a concerted effort to interlock the ASW assets, damage models, contact reports, campaign files, and weapon damage balancing in an effort cut down on rediculous tonnage hauls.

Nothing under the sun that we do, or choose not to do, is going to make everyone happy. Tailoring the AI perception (or any element of GWX) to each individual's personal preference or interpretation is quite naturally impossible.

I can only tell you this... Every member of the GWX dev team, past and present, beyond any shadow of a doubt IMHO... quite unselfishly, gave his personal best, many sleepless nights, and long hours... to get GWX where it is.

I wish you the best of luck to you, Markshot. Truthfully and sincerely, I hope you find what you are looking for.

[Vacillator]

Wow Herr Kpt. Lehmann, quite a reply and very intersting reading.

FWIW I think that the GWX team have worked miracles given the limitations forced upon them. A genuine thankyou from me to all involved

[MarkShot]

Reposted from another thread. I guess one thing I need to realize is that on the Internet it usually comes to a bad end to discuss any game other than the game for which the forums was intended. I will refrain in the future and only address SH3 specifics. Sorry ... I did not mean to upset anyone.

By the way, I did read and print out your very extensive thread where discussed the release of GWX 1.03 and people's perceptions.

Jimbuna,

My profession is computer systems design. Although I have designed some massively multi-player gaming systems, these were not in the class of simulations. I have written game strategy guides, since the early 1990s and have participated as a beta tester of games, since 2000.

So, I cannot help but to compare designs of games that fall into similar categories with both professional and personal interest. I mean no offense to those fans of SH3 or to those fantastically talented people who developed GWX. Although I have played SHCE and SH2/PA (also SC and SC/SCXIIC/SCU), I do find the most interesting comparisons for SH3 are with AOD.

Game design issues are fascinating such as the decision to go 3D with SH3 (SH2/SC/DW 3D is highly limited), the introduction of crew management, but the lack of wolf packs ...

Equally interesting is how techniques which are highly effective in one game prove to practically useless in another. Of course, ideally a completely accurate simulation of the realworld by different designers/developers would lead to identical results.

So, that's the way I am. I know quite a few small independent game developers and time permitting we correspond about game design issues.

Once again, no offense meant. I am having fun with SH3/GWX. I am also looking forward to trying out NYGM and WAC too.

[Jimbuna]

No problem kaleun
I have responded to your PM. I am unaware if you have also contacted the Kpt. but if you have I am sure he will respond at his earliest convenience
You sir appear to be a gentleman

Sadly, the written word can sometimes be perceived in a few ways too many

Calm seas and fair winds

Salute
Jimbuna

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Markshot,

It is true, the internet and the flatness of text (no matter how many smilies you use) often leads to the wrong impression. It appears I've misunderstood you. I apologize if I sounded harsh in return. I was hoping to sound neutral.

Concerning the "limitations of SH3" I intensely dislike using the term... I don't like to criticize the work of the SH3 dev team, as it feels like I'm biting the hand that feeds us all. Bugs and all, I'm really glad we've got SH3 considering the alternatives.

No worries, mate.

Sink'em all!

[rik007]

Kpt. Lehmann! What a reply! With GWX 1.03 we got an excellent game balance in SH-III which will be a standard very hard to pass. "... The AI should punish dumb mistakes ... assuming you are willing to give up bad habits ...": that is exactly what GWX does. Mostly it goed wrong when I overhastely try to get to the moment to launch the fishes. In your back of your brains you know that you are taking unacceptable risks but you make yourself think that it is all possible. Is the AI too harsh? I do not know as I never experienced the real thing. With GWX you need to think before you act and it is so rewarding when your plan turns into a succes!