Sacred Relics, or distractions?

[Frau_Phillips]

I may be the only one who thinks about this, being a piece of liberal scum among you salty sea-dogs but I thought I'd bring it up while you all still think I'm a frigging angel (heh) and I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I've been seeing a lot of stuff around lately concerning to "holiness" of certain artifacts. The bible, the Koran, the American flag, etc. To the respective cultures these things represent, if you so much as look at them funny, it's sacrilege.

Aren't these things just symbols for a bigger ideal? If I don't feel like pledging my alligence to a piece of cloth with stars and stripes every single morning, why am I labeled anti-American?

I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)

What I gathered from that was, the American dream is to stand, wasting time I could be using for more valuable things (like school) reciting the same words every day that I don't mean.

I understand though, that it goes both ways. If I burn the flag, shouting anti-American slurs, I'm being a bitch. But if my flag falls into a fire while I'm burning leaves, why should I even feel bad? It's the same with a bible. If I rip the pages out, speaking in tongues, yeah I might be posessed. But if I leave it in the car, should some religious nut key my car and post a note about my actions being worship to the devil?

Does anybody feel that way? Or am I really a devil posessed communist? Can I support an ideal without worshipping something that's material?

[Letum]

The American tradition of "Pledges" in schools is nothing short of nationalistic indoctrination. It's most common amongst highly authoritarian nations. (and liked by highly authoritarian teachers as you noticed ). That's why it was so popular in Nazi Germany.
It links in quite nicely with the ""holiness" of certain artifacts". Both the pledge and artifacts are revered or considered "holy" because it is one of the ways that authorities (Church, State or any hierarchy) use to make you feel like a small part of something bigger. This is useful to authorities because it opiates the masses and makes them more mailable. There are plenty of historic examples of where that leads.

That's reason enough to have a health degree of cynicism towards such things. Many people lack any cynicism about what is revered or received as "holy". However, you, clearly, do not and I applaud you for that!

If your interested in further reading take a look at classical 19th and early 20th century social anthropology.

[NefariousKoel]

I had to do the "Anthem" up until around 3rd grade. Every one of us kids hated the repetition of it. Every single one, including me. They stopped doing it at my school.

Everyone has national pride, but Americans just have a bit more. It's not an "indoctrination" of nazi proportions as some would like to think. It's a unity of individualism. Us jerkoff Ami believe we have a unique, individualistic nation and we're quite willing to defend that uniqueness.

An example would be the laughs I got over the past few years of people calling us "cowboys". While, in other countries, a cowboy was considered some jackass who randomly shot people and yelled "yee-haw", us Americans laughed because we know them as independent hard-asses who wouldn't put up with anyone else's bullsh*t.

It just went to show how different we are than much the rest of the world our ancestors left.

As for flag-waving, I don't do it. But I'm proud when I see it. That day mentioned too often.. I saw people literally everywhere waving them that very afternoon. It was a sight to see driving home on the interstate and every single overpass had people of all kinds with flags draped down the sides while people were making all the noise they could in unison no matter where they were. I don't think I'll ever see anything like that again. I also think we're the only nation that would show such unification in such a circumstance.

Relate us to Fascists all you want. We are the most divided nation you'll see, but everyone here is proud of their part and will stand up for what we are in a heartbeat.

[Smaragdadler]

Time to post a link to one of my favourite conspiracy-theories website.



---> http://rexcurry.net/

[The Avon Lady]

Rest in peace, Red Skelton.

Good night and G-d bless!

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

I may be the only one who thinks about this, being a piece of liberal scum among you salty sea-dogs but I thought I'd bring it up while you all still think I'm a frigging angel (heh) and I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I've been seeing a lot of stuff around lately concerning to "holiness" of certain artifacts. The bible, the Koran, the American flag, etc. To the respective cultures these things represent, if you so much as look at them funny, it's sacrilege.

Aren't these things just symbols for a bigger ideal? If I don't feel like pledging my alligence to a piece of cloth with stars and stripes every single morning, why am I labeled anti-American?

I was late for class one day, and very worried about missing some instruction on a subject I have trouble with. The Pledge was on the loudspeaker, but I didn't pay much attention, I had bigger fish to fry. However, as I was walking at full speed, a large teacher who had planted herself in the middle of the Hall yelled "STOP" at me. Confused, I did. She wouldnt speak until the Pledge was over, and then I was taken to the front office and made to sit, missing the entire class because I was listening to a woman call me a commie in front of the entire administration.
(I failed the exam, too. Algebra sucks.)

What I gathered from that was, the American dream is to stand, wasting time I could be using for more valuable things (like school) reciting the same words every day that I don't mean.

I understand though, that it goes both ways. If I burn the flag, shouting anti-American slurs, I'm being a bitch. But if my flag falls into a fire while I'm burning leaves, why should I even feel bad? It's the same with a bible. If I rip the pages out, speaking in tongues, yeah I might be posessed. But if I leave it in the car, should some religious nut key my car and post a note about my actions being worship to the devil?

Does anybody feel that way? Or am I really a devil posessed communist? Can I support an ideal without worshipping something that's material?

Can't really comment too much on this subject(being a Brit). But from over here it's always looked a little weird and WW2 German -like, to do something like the pledge of allegiance, still if it works for you guys then great.

[Oberon]

Some nations have it, some don't. The Brits have the Union Jack/Flag, and it's taken enough stick over the years that no-one is really that bothered if some idiot in a Middle Eastern country decides to set fire to it, so long as it's not attached to a British soldier at the time. But we do have little bits of heritage and history that we are quite proud of, and it depends from area to area, Scotland may have Edinburgh castle, Wales has it's hills and valleys, England has Big Ben, Westminster, heritage buildings and such, and we do tend to get a bit ranked when tourists refer to our towns and villages as 'quaint' but even with the Royal family, to be honest, I think the US has more affection for the Royal family than some Brits

I think since the end of the Empire and the Second World War, a lot of British people have gotten very empathetic towards their country, we may like it, but we realise it's not as good as we want it to be.

As for taking a pledge in school, well, I personally think it's up to the individual, if you don't want to recite the words than that's your decision...to be honest, it should be your freedom to do so, after all, it's that sort of freedom that the US was set up to have, wasn't it?

[robbo180265]

Originally Posted by Oberon

Some nations have it, some don't. The Brits have the Union Jack/Flag, and it's taken enough stick over the years that no-one is really that bothered if some idiot in a Middle Eastern country decides to set fire to it, so long as it's not attached to a British soldier at the time. But we do have little bits of heritage and history that we are quite proud of, and it depends from area to area, Scotland may have Edinburgh castle, Wales has it's hills and valleys, England has Big Ben, Westminster, heritage buildings and such, and we do tend to get a bit ranked when tourists refer to our towns and villages as 'quaint' but even with the Royal family, to be honest, I think the US has more affection for the Royal family than some Brits

I think since the end of the Empire and the Second World War, a lot of British people have gotten very empathetic towards their country, we may like it, but we realise it's not as good as we want it to be.

As for taking a pledge in school, well, I personally think it's up to the individual, if you don't want to recite the words than that's your decision...to be honest, it should be your freedom to do so, after all, it's that sort of freedom that the US was set up to have, wasn't it?

Put much better than I could

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

I've got a little elbow room to piss some people off.

I like this girl! :rotfl:

[Frau_Phillips]

Oi, I didn't ever say that I dont feel a burst of pride for being American in certain situations. After 9/11, (although I was only 11) I was just as proud of my flag as everyone else. And I'm happy to fly one in my porch. That's fine, I know my Rich feels that way about his Union Jack.

I'm talking about when it crosses the line. I mean, kissing the flag if it touches the ground? SCaring little kids who have to raise the flag to death by telling them they'll go to hell if they drop it?

I wasnt comparing any of you to facists at all, not for a second. I merely assumed that by your confidence in the army, and your obvious love of the navy, that you'd all be more patriotic then me, a freaking hippie.

Peace

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

Oi, I didn't ever say that I dont feel a burst of pride for being American in certain situations. After 9/11, (although I was only 11) I was just as proud of my flag as everyone else. And I'm happy to fly one in my backyard. That's fine, I know my Rich feels that way about his Union Jack.

I'm talking about when it crosses the line. I mean, kissing the flag if it touches the ground? SCaring little kids who have to raise the flag to death by telling them they'll go to hell if they drop it?

How many crackpots like this are there? I've never come across one.

Oh. Hello.

[Oberon]

Oh good grief, yeah, I must admit, I do have a slight twinge of pride when I see the Union Jack, and prefer it to the other flags (although the old hammer and sickle is a nice design...) but I don't think I've ever really flown one...hell, I don't even put up one for the England team in the World Cup...mainly because I know I'll have to take it down again in a few weeks.

[Frau_Phillips]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

How many crackpots like this are there? I've never come across one.

Oh. Hello.

Try going to Catholic School for 8 years :p You'll meet a bunch of them XP

And hi ^-^

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Frau_Phillips

Try going to Catholic School for 8 years :p You'll meet a bunch of them XP

No thanks. Only the good die young. :p

[DanCanovas]

*whisper" female bonding!