Hardcore playing and the chronometer

elanaiba · 05-22-07, 10:33 AM

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

Dowly · 05-22-07, 10:38 AM

I would like to see it working as now there's only two options; automatic targeting and full manual. In SHIII it helped me alot to first try the game with the semi-manual method, before going full manual.

Keelbuster · 05-22-07, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

Heh...arg. Well, first of all, it's a planned, advertised feature, so it should work. Period. But otherwise, as a hardcore man targetter, I need all the data I can get. All of my estimates are noisy (3.15 rule, pacing, chronometer, guessing based on identity). I take a little bit of information from all of them to provide the best estimate. This is where the most skill comes in. There is also skill involved in judging AoB, which is an important aspect of chronometer based speed estimates. My suggestion is to play some SH3 with man targetting, no WO or WE assistance, and no external cam. Go ahead and piece together a firing solution. You need every measure you can get, and the uncertainty is what makes it fun.

U-Bones · 05-22-07, 10:54 AM

From someone who always played auto in sh3, but has started to occasaionally play manual in sh4, it would be a welcome middle road, simpy because it saves time. Yes I can mark the map and repeat in 3 minutes, but this simulates that and saves time better spent flipping through the ID book (which i also have mixed feelings about). I am just slow, and I am sure I will improve over time.

That said, to me the cron/speed is not most important, but I say that sensing I am a minority on the issue. To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

Keelbuster · 05-22-07, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

Aye - these issues are gamebreakers...

SteamWake · 05-22-07, 11:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelbuster

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

Aye - these issues are gamebreakers...

Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?

MONOLITH · 05-22-07, 11:11 AM

I agree with both sides on this.

Most of us are here at subsim because we are hardcore simmers. I agree that the real joy in these types of sims is doing it the hard manual way. Having a magic speed telling button goes against the real sim experience.

I also have to agree though, that if it's "in the manual", it should be working in the game. One of those that really bugs me is the ability to make notes on the map. We've been asking for that since the release of SH3. Then, it showed up in the SH4 manual, and it was cause for celebration. It was a real let down to have it not exist anywhere in the game.

Regardless, I can live without the magic clock. It's more fun doing it manually anyway. If we could only have a few things fixed, I could pass on the chronometer in favor of some other issues.

05-22-07, 11:13 AM

Personally, I don't give a flying monkey about the Chronometer....I agree with the original post. However, this is just my oppinion, i'm sure others would like it to work.

MONOLITH · 05-22-07, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?

One of the biggest things we need around here, is to stop beating on each other. Please.

Post #22

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...=114948&page=2

OlegM · 05-22-07, 11:19 AM

Good question Dan, and I for one fully support the chrono as it is now. If I want to play hardcore, I want to play hardcore, meaning I calc the speed myself, period! I never even understood the people saying chrono does not work. They mean to say auto-speed calc does not work? Well who cares

To people who talk about "planned, advertised feature" - you make me laugh :rotfl:

"Advertised feature"? You mean like Ubisoft bought 2 page spread ad in the PC Gamer saying SH 4 WILL HAVE AUTO-SPEED CALCULATING CHRONO? LOL :rotfl:

Dowly · 05-22-07, 11:35 AM

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer.

U-Bones · 05-22-07, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteamWake

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keelbuster

Quote:

Originally Posted by U-Bones

To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

Aye - these issues are gamebreakers...

Way to stay on topic boys.

Why dont you address the actual subject here, the chronometer ?

I did, unlike you.

OlegM · 05-22-07, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dowly

You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer.

Of course, and no problem. I too still sometimes play with auto targetting.

BUT when I play hardcore I expect hardcore.

BTW I think the great flexibility of SH4 in adjustments that vary from catering to casual player to hardcore pro is one of the great strengths and selling points for this game

btaft · 05-22-07, 11:56 AM

I don't have an issue with the chrono as it is now, though I can see how others would. I believe in real life the skipper would obtain speed through one of three methods

1) Taking two positions and measuring the distance and time to get rate

2) Use the method of seeing how long the target takes to pass thru a mark and use the length and time

3) Match speed and course

I think the chrono works fine for all three of those. The only potential argument comes into play with method #2. I believe in real life a skipper could use a "wheel" to find the time length and time time to get the distance. The "as advertised" chrono would in essence simulate turning the wheel to the correct speed (thus not requiring any real calculations).

Like I said I am ok with it and have in fact just set up a spreasheet to do what a wheel would do for #2 anyways.

One thing that does make manual targeting a bear is the discrepancy (sometimes quite large) between the visual mast heights and the ones used in the stadimeter. These can lead to fairly gross plotting errors and thus make calculating speed via #1 very problematic. I realize this is easily fixed...modded. I would like to know if this is an intended feature (i.e. intel on the enemy was not perfect and was in fact variable to a certain extent within the same class). If so I am ok with it since it kind of adds to the immersion by making a skipper lean more towards a typical spread to ensure at least a couple hits on a high value target (although the mast height differences on a couple of the carriers are off quite a bit).

I do like one aspect of the chrono though......and that is I can pull it up on any screen I want. It really helps with doing other tasks and keeping an eye on when I need to take another range reading.

AirborneTD · 05-22-07, 12:07 PM

I agree with Btaft. I also know (from extensive reading) that real sub skippers would usually have the speed (and true course, zig zags, etc) worked out by using radar. This is something you can also do now with this game.

I have no problem with the chronometer not working as advertised. I use manual targeting and calculate speed myself using radar and/or visual sightings over time between 2 points--using the in-game chronometer.

05-22-07, 11:11 AM	#7
MONOLITH Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 997 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I agree with both sides on this. Most of us are here at subsim because we are hardcore simmers. I agree that the real joy in these types of sims is doing it the hard manual way. Having a magic speed telling button goes against the real sim experience. I also have to agree though, that if it's "in the manual", it should be working in the game. One of those that really bugs me is the ability to make notes on the map. We've been asking for that since the release of SH3. Then, it showed up in the SH4 manual, and it was cause for celebration. It was a real let down to have it not exist anywhere in the game. Regardless, I can live without the magic clock. It's more fun doing it manually anyway. If we could only have a few things fixed, I could pass on the chronometer in favor of some other issues. __________________

05-22-07, 12:07 PM	#15
AirborneTD Engineer Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Pennsylvania, USA Posts: 204 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	I agree with Btaft. I also know (from extensive reading) that real sub skippers would usually have the speed (and true course, zig zags, etc) worked out by using radar. This is something you can also do now with this game. I have no problem with the chronometer not working as advertised. I use manual targeting and calculate speed myself using radar and/or visual sightings over time between 2 points--using the in-game chronometer. __________________ "You know, you might get surrounded." "We're paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded." --Band of Brothers

05-22-07, 10:33 AM	#1
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	Hardcore playing and the chronometer I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it: One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True. But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit. The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill. So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work. Hard? Yeah! But its an option... Dan P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

05-22-07, 10:38 AM	#2
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,052 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	I would like to see it working as now there's only two options; automatic targeting and full manual. In SHIII it helped me alot to first try the game with the semi-manual method, before going full manual.

05-22-07, 10:54 AM	#4
U-Bones Grey Wolf Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Treading Water Posts: 847 Downloads: 56 Uploads: 0	From someone who always played auto in sh3, but has started to occasaionally play manual in sh4, it would be a welcome middle road, simpy because it saves time. Yes I can mark the map and repeat in 3 minutes, but this simulates that and saves time better spent flipping through the ID book (which i also have mixed feelings about). I am just slow, and I am sure I will improve over time. That said, to me the cron/speed is not most important, but I say that sensing I am a minority on the issue. To me the most important thing by far is enemy fight/flee logic, followed by a more exposed and controllable damage control system.

05-22-07, 11:13 AM	#8
Uber Gruber Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Personally, I don't give a flying monkey about the Chronometer....I agree with the original post. However, this is just my oppinion, i'm sure others would like it to work.

05-22-07, 11:19 AM	#10
OlegM Engineer Join Date: Dec 2001 Posts: 214 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Good question Dan, and I for one fully support the chrono as it is now. If I want to play hardcore, I want to play hardcore, meaning I calc the speed myself, period! I never even understood the people saying chrono does not work. They mean to say auto-speed calc does not work? Well who cares To people who talk about "planned, advertised feature" - you make me laugh :rotfl: "Advertised feature"? You mean like Ubisoft bought 2 page spread ad in the PC Gamer saying SH 4 WILL HAVE AUTO-SPEED CALCULATING CHRONO? LOL :rotfl:

05-22-07, 11:35 AM	#11
Dowly Lucky Jack Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Finland Posts: 25,052 Downloads: 32 Uploads: 0	You guys fail to remember that not everyone is a hardcore simmer.

05-22-07, 11:56 AM	#14
btaft Soundman Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 147 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	I don't have an issue with the chrono as it is now, though I can see how others would. I believe in real life the skipper would obtain speed through one of three methods 1) Taking two positions and measuring the distance and time to get rate 2) Use the method of seeing how long the target takes to pass thru a mark and use the length and time 3) Match speed and course I think the chrono works fine for all three of those. The only potential argument comes into play with method #2. I believe in real life a skipper could use a "wheel" to find the time length and time time to get the distance. The "as advertised" chrono would in essence simulate turning the wheel to the correct speed (thus not requiring any real calculations). Like I said I am ok with it and have in fact just set up a spreasheet to do what a wheel would do for #2 anyways. One thing that does make manual targeting a bear is the discrepancy (sometimes quite large) between the visual mast heights and the ones used in the stadimeter. These can lead to fairly gross plotting errors and thus make calculating speed via #1 very problematic. I realize this is easily fixed...modded. I would like to know if this is an intended feature (i.e. intel on the enemy was not perfect and was in fact variable to a certain extent within the same class). If so I am ok with it since it kind of adds to the immersion by making a skipper lean more towards a typical spread to ensure at least a couple hits on a high value target (although the mast height differences on a couple of the carriers are off quite a bit). I do like one aspect of the chrono though......and that is I can pull it up on any screen I want. It really helps with doing other tasks and keeping an eye on when I need to take another range reading.