Dont You Dare Say......

AVGWarhawk · 05-19-07, 04:48 PM

...my damage control team sucks.

Just look at the depth. Look at my men pumping out the entire ocean! There is nothing wrong with damage control. It is UNDER CONTROL!!!

See the sailor in the back with the mop and bucket??????????

Looks like control room has a viewing window. We may not need the periscope anymore!!!!

Ohhhhhoooo......look at the pretty tropical fish...aaaahhhhhh......ooooooo....gasp! Take picture!

Seriously folks. We can honestly say the damage texture is a little out of hand. BUT, I can say on patrol #5 my damage control team is darn good. This is the third time on this patrol I was damaged. The first time took all day to repair. Still, I'm submerged and out of harms way for the moment. I'm still not conviced the damage control sucks in the game. All we need is the hull % indicator. Even then I may not use it if it is an option.

They have sent me to the Korea Staights. Getting darn deep in enemy territory and there is a convoy headed my way. I'm contemplating a refit down south as PH is my home port. Besides, some of my crew seem to be looking for action and not with the enemy

CaptainHaplo · 05-19-07, 05:11 PM

150 feet it looks like - now thats some pressure your guys are bailing against! When I, personally, claim DC is messed up, I dont mean regarding stuff like this. I mean more like I can fix my AA gun and then the damage respawns, or a refit fixes stuff until I leave port and then everything breaks again. Other than that, we do need a ROUGH estimate of hull strength, and an explanation of how the damage model works.

Tell your guys, excellent job. You should get em all medals!

AVGWarhawk · 05-19-07, 05:29 PM

The gun and cannon. If damaged will stay damaged if the crew stationed at it are injured. Just my experience. Plus if the cannon is damaged it is still be used. That is a problem.

I have never experience the all fixed, submerge to peri depth and keep on sinking. Then again, I do not throw myself in harms way. And if bady damaged usually go to home port. So I can not really say the refit problem has been experienced by me.

Medals??? I'm getting these boys.....well use your imagination here and I will need to shell out a few bucks for it also

MaxT.dk · 05-19-07, 05:40 PM

hehe, how about this one :

And I MADE it home!

Observer · 05-19-07, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Seriously folks. We can honestly say the damage texture is a little out of hand.

The damage texture does an excellent job at indicating the true damage a submarine could expect from a single deck gun hit. The fundamental flaw is in the damage model which does not reflect the real world where a submarine should not be able to submerge after the hull has been penetrated.

When our submarine was doing a small boat transfer in heavy seas we took so much water down the forward escape trunk we flooded the Aux Machinery Room after bilge and shorted out the trim pump (thoughtfully located directly below the forward escape trunk) and this was with the bathtub set up.

Another time a buddy of mine told me about the time they had a problem with the upper cavity drain valve (I think it was the upper cavity drain valve at least) on the weapons shipping hatch after submerging coming out of port. They took on so much water in the forward compartment upper level, middle level and the torpedo room that they lost some electronics, ABTs, and other equipment. That's from a 1/2 in drain line. They thought they were going to lose the boat.

Or the time the gage glass cracked on one of the torpedo tubes while at test depth. Same story. They thought they would lose the boat from the flooding.

In the case of the Sandlance, divers had mistakenly placed the blank flange over the wrong hull penetration. Imagine the crew's surprise when they took the internal flange apart to be greeted by a sudden inrush of water. She sank next to the pier. That was a 4 in penetration if I recall correctly, but it may have been larger.

Beery · 05-19-07, 11:54 PM

I'd like to remove the damage graphic altogether, but I haven't found out how to remove it yet. As Observer says it doesn't work right anyway in terms of the DM, so I don't see why I need to have the simulation's flaw staring me in the face every time I look at an outside view after having been hit by a deck gun.

By the way does this graphic appear after depth charge attacks too? If so I reckon it needs toning down because as far as I know DCs didn't blow a 12ft hole in the hull - a big old dent or a crack maybe, but surely not a hole you could drive a small car through.

AVGWarhawk · 05-20-07, 09:18 AM

@ Observer,

yes it gives you a good indication on the damage and we are able to submerge but only after it is repaired. If repaired the texture should go away but it does not. Anyway, a hole like this is not repairable when out to sea IMHO. This should have been a career ender.

VonBlade · 05-20-07, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

I don't see why I need to have the simulation's flaw staring me in the face every time I look at an outside view

Is that a deliberately ironic juxtaposition there? Surely any outside view in a simulation is a flaw? :tongue in cheek smiley:

VB

Beery · 05-20-07, 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonBlade

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beery

I don't see why I need to have the simulation's flaw staring me in the face every time I look at an outside view

Is that a deliberately ironic juxtaposition there? Surely any outside view in a simulation is a flaw? :tongue in cheek smiley:

Hehe, not really. The simulation only has to be real for those inside the sim. As the guy running the simulation I can go outside the sub as long as I don't do so in order to gain unfair knowledge of the enemy.

tater · 05-20-07, 09:26 AM

I know there have been mods to slow the sub sinking, etc, but IMO the subs are too hard to sink, not too easy to sink. I think a better route would be to make the subs more fragile, and tone down the DCs to the small size the IJN actually used.

I get hit by a deck gun, doing some serious damage with flooding, and literally minutes later I get a Damage Control report that it's fixed.

Beery · 05-20-07, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

I know there have been mods to slow the sub sinking, etc, but IMO the subs are too hard to sink, not too easy to sink. I think a better route would be to make the subs more fragile, and tone down the DCs to the small size the IJN actually used.

I get hit by a deck gun, doing some serious damage with flooding, and literally minutes later I get a Damage Control report that it's fixed.

Damage control times seem to be easy to fix. I haven't done it yet but the damage control files are all in the UPCUnitsData folder - the value "
repairtime_in_hours" can be adjusted to give realistic fix times.

The thing is, while it's true that subs are too hard to sink (let's say for argument's sake that they're twice as hard to sink as a real sub) it's also true that destroyers sink our subs at a rate that's (let's say,again for the sake of argument) about 50 times higher than reality. So the more apparent problem (in my view) is destroyer AI uber-effectiveness. If we can tone down the destroyer AI effectiveness so they're only twice as effective as reality, the sub's twice-as-effective damage model will be counteracted by the destroyer twice-as-effective AI. Personally I'd settle for that.

tater · 05-20-07, 10:44 AM

Well, DDs appear at a rate that is maybe an order of magnitude higher than RL.

Really, to apply real world sinking rates for subs to the game, you first need to at least have the mission layers in the right ballpark as RL. The stock layers are so absurdly loaded with warships it's no wonder we get sunk more than we should.

So I'd say that if you are basing the effectiveness on the chance per patrol of being sunk by a DD, you need to weight things if you are using the standard layers. Weight the sinkings to the number of unique DDs you have seen on each patrol. A single SH4 patrol probably sees more DDs than a real sub saw in the entire war. That or weight the sub sinking rate to tonnage sunk. Right now my layers are gutted of escorts. None of this early 1942 crap with 8 ships escorted by 4 DDs as the convoy norm. Smaller convoys (now with mcoca's tool, they even zig-zag) early war (and fewer of those by a long shot), and they likely have a single DD escort at more, with Minesweepers or Subchasers as the other escorts (with a %, so escorts are not always there). I also axed the contact report generation, so the only way I see stuff 95% of the time is to spot it myself.

I did a patrol last night, Salmon Class, start of war out of Manila. Patrol area was west, not the invasion zone. I saw nothing for over a week. I stayed in the general western approaches instead of going where I knew I'd find targets. I finally got a contact report after a few days, but it was way too far away (I increased the contact report range to closer to default since I have now reduced the reports at the source). The next reports were spread out, but in a week I got maybe 3. Finallyu got a close one for a task force, and I was not well-placed to end around it. Made a best intercept before it got away (my task forces now all move at 15-17 knots). Sank a CA, damaged a CVE in heavy seas. Had to turn and fire all 4 aft tubes to damage the CVE. Interesting that Taiyo doesn't sink with 1 torpedo like the CVs. I then went to Surabaya without seeing another ship en route. This is my new machine, and I haven't put the hardcore torpedo failures in yet. If those were in I'd have come home empty handed I bet.

So I have found that if I act aggressively but realistically I needn't worry too much about getting killed. When I get bored and do stupid things that no one would likely have done, THEN I get killed. In the above example, I reloaded a save game from the time I got the contact report, and dashed in at flank on the surface since the seas were rough as a test. I sank a CA, a CVE, and 4 DDs (all DDs with deck gun), damaged another CL. I was riddled with holes from DD guns, even one of the CLs threw shots at me and hit. Eventually, one hit destroyed my engines. Oddly, a little after that I got a death screen even though I was in the process of sinking 2 more DDs with the deck gun and the boat was afloat without being hit after the engine killer hit. Perhaps you never get the screen shake of the hit that kills you?

So making super subs because we have way way way too many DDs around can result is the junk we see now, like me not being afraid in the least of getting in gun duels with multiple DDs on the surface. I'd rather tone down the layers, then see what happens.

The only way to keep the experience realistic in that sense is to CHOOSE to play as if the DDs were actually dangerous IMO. So I don't use the deck gun, I submerge and go deep if spotted (since I know at PD if I get rammed I'll sink the rammer), etc.

Beery · 05-20-07, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

Right now my layers are gutted of escorts. None of this early 1942 crap with 8 ships escorted by 4 DDs as the convoy norm. Smaller convoys (now with mcoca's tool, they even zig-zag) early war (and fewer of those by a long shot), and they likely have a single DD escort at more, with Minesweepers or Subchasers as the other escorts (with a %, so escorts are not always there). I also axed the contact report generation, so the only way I see stuff 95% of the time is to spot it myself.

Can you release this as a mod? I'm sure that many realism fans would like it and if it was easy enough for me to combine it with some of my stuff I might be interested in this sort of thing as part of RFB.

Beery · 05-20-07, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

...So making super subs because we have way way way too many DDs around can result is the junk we see now, like me not being afraid in the least of getting in gun duels with multiple DDs on the surface. I'd rather tone down the layers, then see what happens...

I don't think anyone here is talking about making super subs. I don't recall seeing any posts here suggesting that. Did I miss something? As far as I can see, every post here is saying that subs are too difficult to sink and that the DM needs fixing so that a single gun hit sinks the sub.

Anyway, with the latest version of RFB it's impossible to get into gun duels while succeeding at sinking any surface ship. You'd be dead before you had sunk as much as a large sampan.

tater · 05-20-07, 11:32 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to make it appear that you were trying to make a super sub. The default game does that by default was what I was getting at, and I figured the slower sinking stuff would anly increase the effect. I get get clobbered by guns every time I duke it out on a surface, and survive.

As for my layers, when i moved to the new machine a couple days ago I turned my layers into a JSGME format, and with some tweaking it worked. When I do it, I will have to include the US planes mod, or people will have to use it since I swapped out the US planes back before I figured out to edit mods as mods. Doh!

Your slower reload time is a great start, I get in surface battles sometimes to test stuff, in "real" play I don't use the gun. None the less, the sub would still live if I ran away on the surface without shooting and the surface combatants hit me again and again, lol.

I think my point about there being so many combatants that measuring sinking rates vs RL is not accurate without some serious weighting though.

05-19-07, 04:48 PM	#1
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Dont You Dare Say...... ...my damage control team sucks. Just look at the depth. Look at my men pumping out the entire ocean! There is nothing wrong with damage control. It is UNDER CONTROL!!! See the sailor in the back with the mop and bucket?????????? Looks like control room has a viewing window. We may not need the periscope anymore!!!! Ohhhhhoooo......look at the pretty tropical fish...aaaahhhhhh......ooooooo....gasp! Take picture! Seriously folks. We can honestly say the damage texture is a little out of hand. BUT, I can say on patrol #5 my damage control team is darn good. This is the third time on this patrol I was damaged. The first time took all day to repair. Still, I'm submerged and out of harms way for the moment. I'm still not conviced the damage control sucks in the game. All we need is the hull % indicator. Even then I may not use it if it is an option. They have sent me to the Korea Staights. Getting darn deep in enemy territory and there is a convoy headed my way. I'm contemplating a refit down south as PH is my home port. Besides, some of my crew seem to be looking for action and not with the enemy __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

05-19-07, 05:11 PM	#2
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	150 feet it looks like - now thats some pressure your guys are bailing against! When I, personally, claim DC is messed up, I dont mean regarding stuff like this. I mean more like I can fix my AA gun and then the damage respawns, or a refit fixes stuff until I leave port and then everything breaks again. Other than that, we do need a ROUGH estimate of hull strength, and an explanation of how the damage model works. Tell your guys, excellent job. You should get em all medals! __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

05-19-07, 05:29 PM	#3
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	The gun and cannon. If damaged will stay damaged if the crew stationed at it are injured. Just my experience. Plus if the cannon is damaged it is still be used. That is a problem. I have never experience the all fixed, submerge to peri depth and keep on sinking. Then again, I do not throw myself in harms way. And if bady damaged usually go to home port. So I can not really say the refit problem has been experienced by me. Medals??? I'm getting these boys.....well use your imagination here and I will need to shell out a few bucks for it also __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

05-19-07, 05:40 PM	#4
MaxT.dk Rough night at Langtrees brothel Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 480 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	hehe, how about this one : And I MADE it home! __________________ http://maxt.dk/archives/2007/03/22/s...nter-4-cheats/ Get KillerSub MOD and bring the Hell back to Earth! The FUN way to play SH4! Now with Rail Guns!

05-19-07, 11:54 PM	#6
Beery Admiral Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Silver Spring, MD, USA (but still a Yorkshireman at heart - tha can allus tell a Yorkshireman...) Posts: 2,497 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I'd like to remove the damage graphic altogether, but I haven't found out how to remove it yet. As Observer says it doesn't work right anyway in terms of the DM, so I don't see why I need to have the simulation's flaw staring me in the face every time I look at an outside view after having been hit by a deck gun. By the way does this graphic appear after depth charge attacks too? If so I reckon it needs toning down because as far as I know DCs didn't blow a 12ft hole in the hull - a big old dent or a crack maybe, but surely not a hole you could drive a small car through. __________________ "More mysterious. Yeah. I'll just try to think, 'Where the hell's the whiskey?'" - Bob Harris, Lost in Translation. "Anyrooad up, ah'll si thi" - Missen.

05-20-07, 09:18 AM	#7
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	@ Observer, yes it gives you a good indication on the damage and we are able to submerge but only after it is repaired. If repaired the texture should go away but it does not. Anyway, a hole like this is not repairable when out to sea IMHO. This should have been a career ender. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

05-20-07, 09:26 AM	#10
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	I know there have been mods to slow the sub sinking, etc, but IMO the subs are too hard to sink, not too easy to sink. I think a better route would be to make the subs more fragile, and tone down the DCs to the small size the IJN actually used. I get hit by a deck gun, doing some serious damage with flooding, and literally minutes later I get a Damage Control report that it's fixed.

05-20-07, 10:44 AM	#12
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Well, DDs appear at a rate that is maybe an order of magnitude higher than RL. Really, to apply real world sinking rates for subs to the game, you first need to at least have the mission layers in the right ballpark as RL. The stock layers are so absurdly loaded with warships it's no wonder we get sunk more than we should. So I'd say that if you are basing the effectiveness on the chance per patrol of being sunk by a DD, you need to weight things if you are using the standard layers. Weight the sinkings to the number of unique DDs you have seen on each patrol. A single SH4 patrol probably sees more DDs than a real sub saw in the entire war. That or weight the sub sinking rate to tonnage sunk. Right now my layers are gutted of escorts. None of this early 1942 crap with 8 ships escorted by 4 DDs as the convoy norm. Smaller convoys (now with mcoca's tool, they even zig-zag) early war (and fewer of those by a long shot), and they likely have a single DD escort at more, with Minesweepers or Subchasers as the other escorts (with a %, so escorts are not always there). I also axed the contact report generation, so the only way I see stuff 95% of the time is to spot it myself. I did a patrol last night, Salmon Class, start of war out of Manila. Patrol area was west, not the invasion zone. I saw nothing for over a week. I stayed in the general western approaches instead of going where I knew I'd find targets. I finally got a contact report after a few days, but it was way too far away (I increased the contact report range to closer to default since I have now reduced the reports at the source). The next reports were spread out, but in a week I got maybe 3. Finallyu got a close one for a task force, and I was not well-placed to end around it. Made a best intercept before it got away (my task forces now all move at 15-17 knots). Sank a CA, damaged a CVE in heavy seas. Had to turn and fire all 4 aft tubes to damage the CVE. Interesting that Taiyo doesn't sink with 1 torpedo like the CVs. I then went to Surabaya without seeing another ship en route. This is my new machine, and I haven't put the hardcore torpedo failures in yet. If those were in I'd have come home empty handed I bet. So I have found that if I act aggressively but realistically I needn't worry too much about getting killed. When I get bored and do stupid things that no one would likely have done, THEN I get killed. In the above example, I reloaded a save game from the time I got the contact report, and dashed in at flank on the surface since the seas were rough as a test. I sank a CA, a CVE, and 4 DDs (all DDs with deck gun), damaged another CL. I was riddled with holes from DD guns, even one of the CLs threw shots at me and hit. Eventually, one hit destroyed my engines. Oddly, a little after that I got a death screen even though I was in the process of sinking 2 more DDs with the deck gun and the boat was afloat without being hit after the engine killer hit. Perhaps you never get the screen shake of the hit that kills you? So making super subs because we have way way way too many DDs around can result is the junk we see now, like me not being afraid in the least of getting in gun duels with multiple DDs on the surface. I'd rather tone down the layers, then see what happens. The only way to keep the experience realistic in that sense is to CHOOSE to play as if the DDs were actually dangerous IMO. So I don't use the deck gun, I submerge and go deep if spotted (since I know at PD if I get rammed I'll sink the rammer), etc.

05-20-07, 11:32 AM	#15
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	Sorry, I didn't mean to make it appear that you were trying to make a super sub. The default game does that by default was what I was getting at, and I figured the slower sinking stuff would anly increase the effect. I get get clobbered by guns every time I duke it out on a surface, and survive. As for my layers, when i moved to the new machine a couple days ago I turned my layers into a JSGME format, and with some tweaking it worked. When I do it, I will have to include the US planes mod, or people will have to use it since I swapped out the US planes back before I figured out to edit mods as mods. Doh! Your slower reload time is a great start, I get in surface battles sometimes to test stuff, in "real" play I don't use the gun. None the less, the sub would still live if I ran away on the surface without shooting and the surface combatants hit me again and again, lol. I think my point about there being so many combatants that measuring sinking rates vs RL is not accurate without some serious weighting though.