Why only partial attempt at making this game realistic

[stormbird]

OK i am only now finding that despite the fact the makers of SH4 have gone to alot of trouble making the submarine as realistic as possible, they have dismally failed to make the rest of the game realistic. Numerous times i have sailed to areas where Major Japanese fleet actions a supposed to be taking place only to find nothing. So many historic battles never take place in the game. What about production numbers then, heres a basic list of actual WWII japanese warships (basic i know i am missing ships and classes)

CARRIERS & SEAPLANE TENDERS
Unyru class - Unryu, Amagi, Katsuragi (Aso, Ikoma never commissioned)
Taiyo class - Taiyo, Chuyo, Unyo
Shinano class - Shinano
Taiho class - Taiho
Hiyo class - Hiyo, Junyo
Shokaku class - Shokaku, Zuikaku
Soryu class - Soryu, Hiryu
Ryujo class - Ryujo
Ryuho class - Ryuho
Akagi class - Akagi
Kaga class - Kaga
Mizuho class - Mizuho
Kamikawa Maru class - Kamikawa Maru, Kagu Maru, Kimikawa Maru
Akitsu Maru class - Akitsu Maru, Nigitsu Maru
Shoho class - Shoho, Zuiho
Chitose class - Chitose, Chiyoda
Nisshin class - Nisshin

BATTLESHIPS
Yamato class - Yamato, Musashi
Nagato class - Nagato, Mutsu
Ise class - Ise, Hyuga
Fuso class - Fuso, Yamashiro
Kongo class - Kongo, Haruna, Hiei, Kirishima

HEAVY CRUISERS
Tone class - Tone, Chikuma
Mogami class - Mogami, Kumano, Mikuma, Suzuya
Takao class - Takao, Atago, Chokai, Maya
Myoko class - Myoko, Ashigara, Haguro, Nachi
Furutaka class - Furutaka, Aoba, Kako, Kinugasa

LIGHT CRUISERS
Oyodo class - Oyodo
Agano class - Agano, Sakawa, Noshiro, Yahagi
Katori class - Katori, Kashii, Kashima
Yubari class - Yubari
Naka class - Naka, Jintsu, Sendai
Nagara class - Nagara, Abukuma, Isuzu, Kinu, Natori, Yura
Kuma class - Kuma, Kiso, Kitakami, Oi, Tama
Tenryu class - Tenryu, Tatsuta

DESTROYERS
Matsu class - Matsu, Hinoki, Kaede, Kashi, Kaya, Keyaki, Kiri, Kuwa, Maki, Momi, Momo, Nara, Sugi, Sakura, Take, Tsubaki, Ume, Yanagi
Akizuki class - Akizuki, Fuyutsuki, Hanatsuki, Harutsuki, Hatsutsuki, Natsuzuki, Niizuki, Shimotsuki, Suzutsuki, Teruzuki, Wakatsuki, Yoizuki
Yugumo class - Yugumo, Akigumo, Akishimo, Asashimo, Fujinami, Hamanami, Hayanami, Hayashimo, Kazekumo, Kishinami, Kiyonami, Kiyoshimo, Makikumo, Makinami, Naganami, Okinami, Onami, Suzunami, Takanami, Tamanami
Shimakaze class - Shimakaze
Kagero class - Kagero, Amatsukaze, Arashi, Hagikaze, Hamakaze, Hatsukaze, Hayashio, Isokaze, Kuroshio, Maikaze, Natsushio, Nowaki, Oyashio, Shiranui, Tanikaze, Tokitsukaze, Urakaze, Yukikaze
Asashio class - Asashio, Arare, Arashio, Asagumo, Kasumi, Michishio, Minegumo, Natsugumo, Oshio, Yamagumo
Shiratsuyu class - Shiratsuyu, Harusame, Kawakaze, Murasame, Samidare, Shigure, Suzukaze, Umikaze, Yamakaze, Yudachi
Hatsuharu class - Hatsuharu, Ariake, Hatsushimo, Nenohi, Wakaba, Yugure
Akatsuki class - Akatsuki, Hibiki, Ikazuchi, Inazuma
Fubuki class - Fubuki, Akebono, Amagiri, Asagiri, Ayamani, Hatsuyuki, Isonami, Miyuki, Murakumo, Oboro, Sagiri, Sazanami, Shikinami, Shinonome, Shirakumo, Shirayuki, Uranami, Ushio, Usugumo, Yugiri
Mutsuki class - Mutsuki, Fumizuki, Kikuzuki, Kisaragi, Mikazuki, Minazuki, Mochizuki, Nagatsuki, Satsuki, Uzuki, Yayoi, Yuzuki

When i do come across a Carrier battlegroup or something i am finding a large mix of Destroyers with the odd Heavy/Light Crusier or Battleship, and about 3-4 Shokaku class carriers with equal amounts of Akitsu Maru Escort Carriers. And its not a minor numbers miscount, say i sink all the Shokaku carriers a couple of days later i will find another large group of them, and then another and another. Seriously if the Japs REALLY had this many carriers they would have wiped the Pacific fleet off the map. And its not just the capital Ships its everything. How are they saying this game is so realistic when it ain't.............Don't get me wrong i love the game and have loved the previous ones too, but it could be better, at least SH3 never had super unrealistic masses of carriers like this one


Three Yamato classes and counting

[Steeltrap]

There's a thread in the moddders' forum somewhere which points out that there is something which appears to be a OOB for the various sides but that it's not used by the sim. Suggestion is it is something not "finished" come release time. Not sure if someone is looking into it further.

As a suggestion, you might like to go there and post a request (use [REQ] before the post title) that it be looked into.

One final thing - it's usually more helpful when pointing out a flaw to propose a solution. You've done some of that work posting a good list of various warships. Trick is to see if there's any way to dovetail that list, amended for sinkings, into the spawning logic to prevent you from sinking 6 Yamatos.....

My view is that this issue is small change compared with some of the real howlers in the realism stakes (radar being just one of them - if you read about investigations into radar in the modders' forum you'll see just how screwy it is!).

Just to make it clear, I'm NOT having a go at you for posting this - merely suggesting how you can use it to turn a negative (failure to track sinkings and incorrect OOB) into a positive (perhaps a mod that does so).

Cheers

[hyperion2206]

I can't stand this nagging and moaning no longer! The devs had a real tight development schedule and simply didn't have the time to create every single class. So some carriers are a stand-in for ships that didn't make it into the game.
And if you want to play full realism, then follow these guidelines:

How to Simulate Being in the Navy Some Ways For Old Salts to Simulate Being in the Navy
1. Lock all friends and family outside. Your only means of communication should be with letters that your neighbours have held for at least three weeks, discarding two of five.
2. Surround yourself with 200 people that you don't really know or like: people who smoke, snore like Mack trucks going uphill, and use foul language like a child uses sugar on cereal.
3. Unplug all radios and TVs to completely cut yourself off from the outside world. Have a neighbour bring you a Time, Newsweek, or Proceedings from five years ago to keep you abreast of current events.
4. Monitor all home appliances hourly, recording all vital information (ie: plugged in, lights come on when doors open, etc)
5. Do not flush the toilet for five days to simulate the smell of 40 people using the same commode.
6. Lock the bathroom twice a day for a four hour period.
7. Wear only military uniforms. Even though nobody cares, clean and press one dress uniform and wear it for 20 minutes.
8. Cut your hair weekly, making it shorter each time, until you look bald or look like you lost a fight with a demented sheep.
9. Work in 19-hour cycles, sleeping only four hours at a time, to ensure that your body does not know or even care if it is day or night.
10. Listen to your favourite CD 6 times a day for two weeks, then play music that causes acute nausea until you are glad to get back to your favourite CD.
11. Cut a twin mattress in half and enclose three sides of your bed. Add a roof that prevents you from sitting up (about 10 inches is a good distance) then place it on a platform that is four feet off the floor. Place a small dead animal under the bed to simulate the smell of your bunkmate's socks.
12. Set your alarm to go off at 10 minute intervals for the first hour of sleep to simulate the various times the watchstanders and nightcrew bump around and wake you up. Place your bed on a rocking table to ensure you are tossed around the remaining three hours. Make use of a custom clock that randomly simulates fire alarms, police sirens, helicopter crash alarms, and a new-wave rock band.
13. Have week old fruit and vegetables delivered to your garage and wait two weeks before eating them.
14. Prepare all meals blindfolded using all the spices you can grope for, or none at all. Remove the blindfold and eat everything in three minutes.
15. Periodically, shut off all power at the main circuit breaker and run around shouting "fire, fire, fire" and then restore power.
16. At least once a month, force the commode to overflow to simulate a 'black water system' boo-boo.
17. Buy a gas mask and smear it with rancid animal fat. Scrub the faceshield with steel wool until you can no longer see out of it. Wear this for two hours every fifth day especially when you are in the bathroom.
18. Study the owner's manual for all household appliances. Routinely take an appliance apart and put it back together.
19. Remove all plants, pictures and decorations. Paint everything gray, white, or the shade of hospital smocks.
20. Buy 50 cases of toilet paper and lock up all but two rolls. Ensure one of these two rolls is wet all the time.
21. Smash your forehead or shins with a hammer every two days to simulate collision injuries sustained onboard Navy ships.
22. When making sandwiches, leave the bread out for six days, or until it is hard and stale.
23. Every 10 weeks, simulate a visit to another port. Go directly to the city slums wearing your best clothes. Find the worst looking place, and ask for the most expensive beer that they carry. Drink as many as you can in four hours. Take a cab home taking the longest possible route. Tip the cabby after he charges you double because you dress funny and don't speak right.
24. Use fresh milk for only two days after each port visit.
25. Keep the bedroom thermostat at 2 deg C and use only a thin blanket for warmth.
26. Ensure that the water heater is connected to a device that provides water at a flow rate that varies from a fast drip to a weak trickle, with the temperature alternating rapidly from -2 to 95 deg C.
27. Use only spoons which hold a minimum of 1/2 cup at a time.
28. Repaint the interior of your home every month, whether it needs it or not.
29. Remind yourself every day: 'it's not just a job, it's an adventure!'
30. Mix kerosene with your water supply to simulate the de-sal plant on the ship picking up JP5 in the intake -- if a lit match thrown into your coffee pot doesn't ignite it, add more kerosene.
31. Stand outside at attention at dawn and have the poorest reader you know read the morning paper outloud. Be sure to have him skip over anything pertinent.
32. Every four hours, check the fluid level in your car's radiator. Check the tire pressure and replace air lost from excessive pressure checks. Be sure to place red tag on ignition stating "DANGER: DO NOT OPERATE" while you perform these checks. Inform your neighbor as to the results of these checks, have him tell you to repeat the checks because he did not see you perform them.
33. Paint your house grey (exterior) include windows except for rooms you do not frequent, paint your car grey, paint your driveway a different shade of grey.
34. Wait outside your dining area as a family member eats a meal, then have that person serve you a meal prepared several hours earlier.
35. Shut all blinds and doors at sunset.
36. Clean your house 'till there's absolutely not a speck of dust anywhere. Call on a stranger to come inspect your house. Ensure stranger sees dust that has collected in the time it took to find him. Stranger cannot leave until he finds irrational fault with your house/belongings.
37. Hang Christmas lights in June. When the neighbors ask, say, "deceptive lighting."
38. Hang white lights when relatives visit. When neighbors ask, say, "friendship lights."

[Chock]

I suppose a lot of it comes down to what settings you play the game on. Nevertheless, in its current state, if you have it on 'full realism' there are still issues of course.

But should you actually manage to sink the Yamato and all the IJN fleet (which in itself would not be realistic since the Yamato was sunk by aircraft bombs and torpedoes) then you might find youself sailing about looking for fishing boats to blast, having no big targets to engage. This of course would actually be realistic, as many US subs in the late stages of the war were so devoid of targets that they ended up sinking tiny sampans (some of which were mis-identified Chinese vessels too). But it would be a boring game if you had to sail 3,000 miles to sink a sampan.

The other side of the coin is; the Yamato only got scratched by the USS Skate when she torpedoed her in real life, Yamato merrily sailing off to be repaired. And if the game were this realistic, it would probably be infuriating to many players too, which is why there are options to have no duds etc.

I like realism in a game or sim, but too much realism is not necessarily a good thing when it comes to creating a gratifying experience. Having said that, I think that making the Yamato damn near unsinkable in SH4 would be a good thing, as it would be a real achievement if anyone managed it. I don't think numbers is the problem if you've managed to sink it 3 times already.

[Ducimus]

RE: Yamato's.

The reason why you see so many Yamato's in a campaign game is because task forces are using Generic entries.

For example : "Generic Battleship".

This means the game will randomly spawn any japanese battleship.

[DragonRR1]

Silent Hunter IV is a game. It simulates submarine combat in the Paciic theatre to a quite incredible level. Given an infinite amount of time I'm sure that every major battle in the pacific could have been accounted for but then the game wouldn't have the open ended nature it has, and imo should keep.

The game is designed, imo, to appeal to a fairly wide audience and whilst it may not be historically realistic to have the ability to sink the Yamato or Musashi more than once, be able to zoom around with an external camera or even be able to save a game so that a player can replay a convoy attack, for many of us these features do add to the overall enjoyment.

Regardless of the above SH4 is very moddable, I'm sure someone will provide mods and missions to suit your particular ideal in any case.

[Hartmann]

Devs team makes a good campaign focused for casual and mainstream gamer, with tons and tons of carriers, battleships, and planes.
Also they probably don´t expend a lot of time on this because they know that it could be modded easily, like the campaigns mods for sh3.

I think for my opinion that it could be better tune down ,with a mod ,the number of big units like battleships and carriers. Sink 4 yamatos and or 6 carriers is very unrealistic.:hmm:

[FAdmiral]

I have played the game "War in the Pacific" where all the warships are mostly
single enties. That is there are no duplicates roaming around the Pacific.
One thing I have noticed in WITP is that the number of merchant ships & convoys
greatly outnumbers the warship TFs. (about 20 to 1) There were just many
more cargo, merchant & various freight/fuel hauling ships than there were
warships (especially larger ones) The code in WITP is enormous due to this
type of reality so I doubt if a sim like SH4 could handle it. So the devs did the
best they could at giving the player something to shoot at....

JIM

[AVGWarhawk]

Numerous times i have sailed to areas where Major Japanese fleet actions a supposed to be taking place only to find nothing.

I picked up on this part of your post and went no further. If you are looking at the inbound messages of the Japanese are doing this and that, it is really not happening while you are playing. It is fluff and adds some atmosphere. It is not scripted for the player in this sense. You are to complete your missions assigned in your own war you set out to make.

Also, the developers have to capture the interest of the casual gamer and the serious hardcore sim/gamer. Alot want to go around blasting everything in sight. More carriers the better for these guys. Then there is me, get it as real as humanly possible. For this, we rely heavily on our modding community who painstakingly work their keyboards and hardware into oblivion to make it happen

Watch this site, it will all come together very soon.

[Iron Budokan]

The stock SH4 game is/was developed for the casual gamer. (I fully understand one can make the case they failed in that regard, too.) I, also, have been critical of SH4 and I think with good reason. But, please, give our modders time to work on this game and I really do think it will ROCK.

[marky]

agreed

i got to Wake about December 15th

i patrolled until December 23rd, seeing only bettys and note a SINGLE jap ship

at which point on the 23rd Wake MAGICALLY changed hands with no jap ships in sight

[stormbird]

Originally Posted by marky

agreed

i got to Wake about December 15th

i patrolled until December 23rd, seeing only bettys and note a SINGLE jap ship

at which point on the 23rd Wake MAGICALLY changed hands with no jap ships in sight

Yes i had the exact same thing happen to me.......... but i had the idea of sitting on the surface and trying to fight off the hoards or fighters and bombers that attacked wake. All i saw were the ever present seagulls and i tried to shoot them down.

[Iron Budokan]

Give our modding community time and they'll fix these historical issues, I'm sure.

[jhelix70]

I'm satisfied for the most part with the number of enemy ships that were modelled...I'm a bit surprised to not see the Nagatos however. They were the most powerful Japanese capital ships other than the Yamotos.