IFF or no IFF?

perisher · 04-18-07, 05:36 AM

Should American surface vessels carry IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) during the Pacific War?

Several times I have made a radar contact while on passage to my patrol billet and diverted to investigate, only to discover friendly shipping. Is this realism or an omission? I have a feeling that it would have been installed on warships but not merchants.

One on such occasion I spotted DDs, some CAs and a couple of CVs. While trying to id I also tried for a good firing position, then I recognised the CAs as American and called off the attack. I wonder what sinking an Essex class CV would have done to my renown?

Scoochy · 04-18-07, 02:14 PM

I don't think there was any IFF back then.

Cakewalk · 04-18-07, 02:19 PM

Scoochy is correct, IFF didn't exist back then. Radar was simple during those times, radio wave shoots out, radio wave bounces off radio-bouncable object, radar reciever picks up bounced wave.

Simple, yet effective. Of course, ships didn't have guided missiles back then, so having no IFF was not a big deal, since you would have to get close enough to a vessel to see it in order to attack it, and by this time you'd be able to see whether it was a friendly or not.

There was always radio communication too, though if you radio an enemy vessel asking them if they are friendlies... well, you've just boned yourself then.

CCIP · 04-18-07, 02:20 PM

Yea, IFF is a very recent introduction.

Your best IFF is the flag.

AVGWarhawk · 04-18-07, 02:25 PM

Many a sub had to fire the cannon when approached by PBY to let them know they were friendly.

CCIP · 04-18-07, 02:27 PM

Right. And many a sub were attacked by friendly aircraft in the Pac - a notorious problem there. The USS Seawolf (SS-197) is generally thought to have been sunk by a friendly plane, for example.

Cakewalk · 04-18-07, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Many a sub had to fire the cannon when approached by PBY to let them know they were friendly.

Hm... Odd way to show that you're a friendly.:hmm: Though I guess if they had no other way, it was effective.

AVGWarhawk · 04-18-07, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cakewalk

Quote:

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Many a sub had to fire the cannon when approached by PBY to let them know they were friendly.

Hm... Odd way to show that you're a friendly.:hmm: Though I guess if they had no other way, it was effective.

I thought so also but that is what they did. I read it in 'Submarine'.

Takao · 04-18-07, 03:40 PM

During WW2, IFF(Identification Friend or Foe) was only used to identify aircraft.

As far as submarine vs. PBY identification. I'm reading "Red Scorpion: the war patrols of the USS Rasher". They were somewhere off Australia and used an Aladis Lamp and signal flares to identify themselves. The PBY turned to attack anyway, and the USS Rasher dove deep and avoided the incoming depth bombs. Another time, she was successful in showing who she was using the same method.

So, word to the wise, incoming planes are NEVER friendly.

Bilge_Rat · 04-18-07, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CCIP

Right. And many a sub were attacked by friendly aircraft in the Pac - a notorious problem there. The USS Seawolf (SS-197) is generally thought to have been sunk by a friendly plane, for example.

The Seawolf was sunk by friendly surface forces, this was confirmed postwar. Pretty sad story too, local forces had been informed of her presence and she was within a supposedly safe corridor, but the task force commander refused to believe she was friendly and kept attacking until she sank with all hands. Fortunately, this is the only known case in WW2.

From 1941 to 1945, US subs were routinely attacked by allied airplanes who could not tell the difference between a US sub or a japanese one.

In short, if you command a sub, you have no friends.

Identification was a problem the other way also. In the game, it is infinitely easier to identify a ship than in ww2 . Because of sea or weather conditions, you often could not get a good look at a ship and when you did, many merchant ships were not in recognition manuals or flying national flags. It was less of an issue in the Pacific where most ships could be presumed to be japanese, but there were still mistaken sinkings of neutral ships.

Scoochy · 04-18-07, 04:53 PM

System IFF was never used in WW2, for any sort of platform. IFF was the mark 1 mod 1 eyball. V ID was the only way of telling if they were on the other side or friendly.

Takao · 04-18-07, 05:39 PM

Sure they were

See here: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar.htm
Specifically: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-13.htm

VipertheSniper · 04-18-07, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Takao

Sure they were

See here: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar.htm
Specifically: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-13.htm

Yep, the Brits had it too. Don't have a link handy tho

Kaleu_Mihoo · 04-18-07, 06:11 PM

Yeah, IIRC when reading a book about my favourite WW2 fighter, Supermarine Spitfire, it was fitted with an IFF-Antenna. But possible it was only used for ID between fighters and ground control.
greets

Charos · 04-18-07, 06:31 PM

http://jproc.ca/sari/sariff.html

"The earliest American IFF system was the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) Model XAE of 1937. It was a shipboard Yagi antenna mounted on a rifle stock that could be pointed at an unknown aircraft.
The pilot would turn on his omnidirectional identification beacon and the ship would transmit back an acknowledgement that flashed a light on the aircraft, visible from the ship. The system worked on a frequency of 500 Mcs.
This air to ship system was tested in 1938 and operational use began in 1939."

04-18-07, 05:36 AM	#1
perisher Frogman Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: England Posts: 300 Downloads: 15 Uploads: 0	IFF or no IFF? Should American surface vessels carry IFF (Identification Friend or Foe) during the Pacific War? Several times I have made a radar contact while on passage to my patrol billet and diverted to investigate, only to discover friendly shipping. Is this realism or an omission? I have a feeling that it would have been installed on warships but not merchants. One on such occasion I spotted DDs, some CAs and a couple of CVs. While trying to id I also tried for a good firing position, then I recognised the CAs as American and called off the attack. I wonder what sinking an Essex class CV would have done to my renown? __________________ "Pitt was the greatest fool who ever lived to encourage a mode of war which they who commanded the seas did not want, and which, if successful, would deprive them of it." Earl St.Vincent (allegedly)

04-18-07, 02:19 PM	#3
Cakewalk Engineer Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Ottawa, Canada Posts: 212 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	Scoochy is correct, IFF didn't exist back then. Radar was simple during those times, radio wave shoots out, radio wave bounces off radio-bouncable object, radar reciever picks up bounced wave. Simple, yet effective. Of course, ships didn't have guided missiles back then, so having no IFF was not a big deal, since you would have to get close enough to a vessel to see it in order to attack it, and by this time you'd be able to see whether it was a friendly or not. There was always radio communication too, though if you radio an enemy vessel asking them if they are friendlies... well, you've just boned yourself then. __________________ Its not a bug... its a feature!

04-18-07, 02:20 PM	#4
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Yea, IFF is a very recent introduction. Your best IFF is the flag. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-18-07, 02:25 PM	#5
AVGWarhawk Lucky Jack Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: In a 1954 Buick. Posts: 28,253 Downloads: 90 Uploads: 0	Many a sub had to fire the cannon when approached by PBY to let them know they were friendly. __________________ “You're painfully alive in a drugged and dying culture.” ― Richard Yates, Revolutionary Road

04-18-07, 02:27 PM	#6
CCIP Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Waterloo, Canada Posts: 8,700 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 2	Right. And many a sub were attacked by friendly aircraft in the Pac - a notorious problem there. The USS Seawolf (SS-197) is generally thought to have been sunk by a friendly plane, for example. __________________ There are only forty people in the world and five of them are hamburgers. -Don Van Vliet (aka Captain Beefheart)

04-18-07, 02:14 PM	#2
Scoochy Sparky Join Date: May 2005 Location: San diego Ca. Posts: 150 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I don't think there was any IFF back then.

04-18-07, 03:40 PM	#9
Takao Officer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 244 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	During WW2, IFF(Identification Friend or Foe) was only used to identify aircraft. As far as submarine vs. PBY identification. I'm reading "Red Scorpion: the war patrols of the USS Rasher". They were somewhere off Australia and used an Aladis Lamp and signal flares to identify themselves. The PBY turned to attack anyway, and the USS Rasher dove deep and avoided the incoming depth bombs. Another time, she was successful in showing who she was using the same method. So, word to the wise, incoming planes are NEVER friendly.

04-18-07, 04:53 PM	#11
Scoochy Sparky Join Date: May 2005 Location: San diego Ca. Posts: 150 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	System IFF was never used in WW2, for any sort of platform. IFF was the mark 1 mod 1 eyball. V ID was the only way of telling if they were on the other side or friendly.

04-18-07, 05:39 PM	#12
Takao Officer Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Reading, PA Posts: 244 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Sure they were See here: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar.htm Specifically: http://www.history.navy.mil/library/online/radar-13.htm

04-18-07, 06:11 PM	#14
Kaleu_Mihoo Medic Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Poland/Germany Posts: 159 Downloads: 66 Uploads: 0	Yeah, IIRC when reading a book about my favourite WW2 fighter, Supermarine Spitfire, it was fitted with an IFF-Antenna. But possible it was only used for ID between fighters and ground control. greets __________________ Beide Maschinen AK voraus, hart backbord, auf 107 Grad gehen! Anlauf beginnt!...NYGM 3.0

04-18-07, 06:31 PM	#15
Charos Helmsman Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 109 Downloads: 31 Uploads: 0	http://jproc.ca/sari/sariff.html "The earliest American IFF system was the Naval Research Laboratory (NRL) Model XAE of 1937. It was a shipboard Yagi antenna mounted on a rifle stock that could be pointed at an unknown aircraft. The pilot would turn on his omnidirectional identification beacon and the ship would transmit back an acknowledgement that flashed a light on the aircraft, visible from the ship. The system worked on a frequency of 500 Mcs. This air to ship system was tested in 1938 and operational use began in 1939."