AI subs fire at Air platforms

[Hawk66]

Hi,

I've finally managed to mod the doctrine scripts so that AI subs can fire SAMs (if they have some) at human/AI controlled planes/helos.

Perhaps a fine-tuned version could be part of the next LWAMI version?

Does somebody want to test it and give feedback? Then I can create a zip or so in the next days...no DB modification is necessary.

[Molon Labe]

I wouldn't mind trying it out. I think I do need to mention, though, that most if not all of the people on the LWAMI team consider the use of subs as AAW platforms to be unrealistic and annoying.

[suBB]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I wouldn't mind trying it out. I think I do need to mention, though, that most if not all of the people on the LWAMI team consider the use of subs as AAW platforms to be unrealistic and annoying.

"..so say we all.."

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I wouldn't mind trying it out. I think I do need to mention, though, that most if not all of the people on the LWAMI team consider the use of subs as AAW platforms to be unrealistic and annoying.

Ok, wasn't aware of that. GrayOwl has already posted his script here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=136503

and it's easier to 'install' because it only consists of one script. I've just randomized a little the behavior (unpredictability) and added the constraint, that the AI subs only fires SAMs if there is only one air/helo detected.

I'm not a naval expert, so why is this unrealistic? Wouldn't a diesel sub uses its SAMs if it's detected by a nearby plane/helo during snorkeling or so (surprisingly of course).

How in general do y think could the AI-sub be more clever to evade air platforms if it gets detected?
Or is it quite realistic, that a sub gets >90% killed if one/two P-3 or so has made a good fix on it?

I've gained my knowledge of ASW mostly by reading Tom Clancy's and Larry Bond's books and some ASW articles...so sorry, if I've ask dump questions

[suBB]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Ok, wasn't aware of that. GrayOwl has already posted his script here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=136503

and it's easier to 'install' because it only consists of one script. I've just randomized a little the behavior (unpredictability) and added the constraint, that the AI subs only fires SAMs if there is only one air/helo detected.

I'm not a naval expert, so why is this unrealistic? Wouldn't a diesel sub uses its SAMs if it's detected by a nearby plane/helo during snorkeling or so (surprisingly of course).

How in general do y think could the AI-sub be more clever to evade air platforms if it gets detected?
Or is it quite realistic, that a sub gets >90% killed if one/two P-3 or so has made a good fix on it?

I've gained my knowledge of ASW mostly by reading Tom Clancy's and Larry Bond's books and some ASW articles...so sorry, if I've ask dump questions

Well, the way I see it from a mission objective point of view, is submarines are made to be covert, so why would a submarine whose sole mission is stealth compromise itself doing so? Logically it doesn’t add up.

If anything you would want to try and spoof the prosecutor and attempt to throw him / her off any hunches of clues to your whereabouts, or radio in air assets to counter the air platforms; not confront them.

One time in a mission objective scenario I made, where it was required for me find a transiting submarine (another playable), I was being prosecuted by active buoys and dipping sonar from a playable helo.

I was being prosecuted long enough to conclude that I’ve been detected. Well, long story short, after monitoring his timing, I launched some active decoys and tried to escape. Only to learn later in debriefing when he told me basically the decoys had him prosecuting something that wasn’t there for additional hour, which bought some time to resume my search for the transiting sub.

Now if its DM style gameplay, that’s a different can of worms where SAM hunting with subs is considered normal and is more than likely welcomed. But for a mission scenario, I don’t think it would be a good idea.

[Molon Labe]

Speaking only for myself, I consider the MADPADS feature, and features related to its use, to be poorly implemented in such a way that makes the MANPADS more useful of an option to the player than it should be in real life. My main complaints are the speed at which the MANPADS can be deployed after surfacing (instantaneously, without any delay for the person to pop the hatch, break the weapon out of its container and perform whatever operations needed on the weapon to make it ready to fire); that surfacing and diving occurs much more quickly than in real life, without any detrimental trimming effects; and that the periscope and ESM masts are completely undetectable by any means.

The sim should have been made in such a way that, as in real life (assuming for a moment that this would EVER be done in real life, which is itself quite a stretch), the use of a MANPADS would be so risky that it should be done only in a situation where the skipper knows the boat will be lost unless they pull off a miracle. The poor implementation allows this weapon's use to approach SOP, which is ****ing trope.

LWAMI has already gone out of its way to nerf the MANPADS by narrowing the missile's sensor cone, increasing flare effectiveness, and making subs at periscope depth detectable by airborne visual sensors.

[GrayOwl]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Speaking only for myself, I consider the MADPADS feature, and features related to its use, to be poorly implemented in such a way that makes the MANPADS more useful of an option to the player than it should be in real life. My main complaints are the speed at which the MANPADS can be deployed after surfacing (instantaneously, without any delay for the person to pop the hatch, break the weapon out of its container and perform whatever operations needed on the weapon to make it ready to fire); that surfacing and diving occurs much more quickly than in real life, without any detrimental trimming effects; and that the periscope and ESM masts are completely undetectable by any means.

The sim should have been made in such a way that, as in real life (assuming for a moment that this would EVER be done in real life, which is itself quite a stretch), the use of a MANPADS would be so risky that it should be done only in a situation where the skipper knows the boat will be lost unless they pull off a miracle. The poor implementation allows this weapon's use to approach SOP, which is ****ing trope.

LWAMI has already gone out of its way to nerf the MANPADS by narrowing the missile's sensor cone, increasing flare effectiveness, and making subs at periscope depth detectable by airborne visual sensors.

Also damages are not simulated for manpads player.
It always can shoot - even when the weak rockets get in an emerged submarine, and blowing Sub Sail. I think after such hit of a rocket, the people should depart upwards by legs from a Sail Sub.

[goldorak]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

Speaking only for myself, I consider the MADPADS feature, and features related to its use, to be poorly implemented in such a way that makes the MANPADS more useful of an option to the player than it should be in real life. My main complaints are the speed at which the MANPADS can be deployed after surfacing (instantaneously, without any delay for the person to pop the hatch, break the weapon out of its container and perform whatever operations needed on the weapon to make it ready to fire); that surfacing and diving occurs much more quickly than in real life, without any detrimental trimming effects; and that the periscope and ESM masts are completely undetectable by any means.

The sim should have been made in such a way that, as in real life (assuming for a moment that this would EVER be done in real life, which is itself quite a stretch), the use of a MANPADS would be so risky that it should be done only in a situation where the skipper knows the boat will be lost unless they pull off a miracle. The poor implementation allows this weapon's use to approach SOP, which is ****ing trope.

LWAMI has already gone out of its way to nerf the MANPADS by narrowing the missile's sensor cone, increasing flare effectiveness, and making subs at periscope depth detectable by airborne visual sensors.

I agree with you that helo hunting is badly done in dw but there are ways to correct this abnormal behaviour (at least in multiplayer).
One is to use a frigate in the zone the helo is operating.
Use the frigate and its canon to cover the area the helo is operating in.
If a sub does surface to pop a sam on the helo it will be receiving very quickly artillery shells and believe me that 2 or 3 hits are sufficient to send back the sub into the abyss if its not already destroyed.
I used this tactic in multiplayer missions where sub players were having a field day shooting down helo players and they were shocked beyond belief when one of them was obliterated by the artillery shells from the frigate.
Lesson learned. Never surface only to shoot offhandly at a helo.

[Molon Labe]

Agreed. I think I have some gun/SM-2 kills against subs myself.

I've also found the over-the-shoulder option for the LWAMI SLAM-ER to be quite effective against those who don't show the P-3 adequate respect.

***
I'll install the doctrine sunday or monday (I'm out of town right now) and make a recomendation. What I'd like to see is that the AI subs are being "smart" about it. If they aren't giving themselves away when they don't have to or are making themselves easy targets, then I think it's worth considering.

[TLAM Strike]

IRL the MANPADS are really for when a submarine is transiting and could come under air attack (think terrorists flying a plane in to a nuclear sub to contaminate a waterway, or a sub surfaced though the ice to launch SLBMs).

Subs don't genneraly get "cought" snorkeling. They spend quite a bit of time (hours even days) before hand making sure the area is totaly clear, and will sneek in among any surface traffic before snorting.

Combat aircraft have a huge advantage over a surface submarine, even a fighter's cannon could do some serrious damage if its AP rounds pentrated the pressure hull. Yea you might shoot down a plane but now you can't dive because there are a couple hundred holes in your hull and more bad guys are on the way.

I think we can track down this whole submarine SAM issue to the Falklands where the ARA Santa Fe (an old GUPPY diesel) was caught on the surface by a couple of helos and got pounded. the sub crew fought back with rifles and Anti-Tank missiles (they had some commandoes on board) to no effect and beach the sub rather than be killed. Everyone looked at this and said "Hay lets get some AA missiles on our subs" not realizing that modern diesels can dive a heck of a lot longer than an old 1950's GUPPY. The Soviets being willing to try anything put a little SAM position in their sails that thanks to some novelists who didn't know what they were talking about or confused it with a one off British system for Israel suddonly became a underwater launch capable missile system for wasting waves of choppers. When in reality its a limited defensive weapon for a couple of rare situations. Heck submarines carry machine guns still but we don't have them in DW! I kinda agree with ML the SAMs are a feature that should have been included but made a little better, and a skilled airborne ASW player can make such a weapon worse than useless- a liablity.

[Dr.Sid]

Machine guns ? What caliber ?

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Machine guns ? What caliber ?

Normaly a 5.56 or 7.62mm, M-60 or FN LMG. Something for shooting sharks during swim call.

[Molon Labe]

Originally Posted by Hawk66

Ok, wasn't aware of that. GrayOwl has already posted his script here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=136503

I'm getting a 404 over there.

EDIT: but i found it directly. Just tried it out for a few runs. The subs are still diving, even when the P-3 is loitering around, low, slow, in range, and radar on. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but I couldn't get them to fire in any circumstances, even in pretty shallow water.

[Hawk66]

Originally Posted by Molon Labe

I'm getting a 404 over there.

EDIT: but i found it directly. Just tried it out for a few runs. The subs are still diving, even when the P-3 is loitering around, low, slow, in range, and radar on. Not that that's necessarily a bad thing, but I couldn't get them to fire in any circumstances, even in pretty shallow water.

Didn't test this version. I've uploaded mine.
http://rapidshare.com/files/11658728...ubsam.zip.html

Remark: The behaviour is a little randomzied. You can run DW in debugmode/use DebugView to see what's going on

[peterloo]

[off topic]Stop spreading the use of cheats. I play Runescape and I know how such cheats ruined the game itself. Furthermore, it would be meaningless to mention anything other than DW in a submarine oriented forum[/off topic]

As stated, the ideas of having people manning MANPADS and shooting down aircraft when the plane is on the surface is simply impractical. However, the Germans devised a solution, called the IDAS, allowing the submarine to fire a SAM containing capsule, which floats and launches the SAM.

It is currently implemented in Type 212 submarines

IDAS (Interactive Defence and Attack System for Submarines) is a short-range missile currently being developed for the new Type 212 submarine class of the German Navy.

Originally Posted by wikipedia

IDAS (based on the IRIS-T air-to-air missile) is primarily targeted against air threats, such as ASW helicopters, but also against small or medium-sized surface vessels or coastal targets. It is currently being developed by Diehl BGT Defence and HDW, which is a part of Thyssen-Krupp Marine Systems (TKMS), to be fired from Type 212's torpedo tubes. IDAS will be fibre-optic guided and officially has a range of approx. 20 km. Four missiles will fit in one torpedo tube, stored in a revolver magazine. First deliveries of IDAS for the German Navy are scheduled from 2009 on.

The IDAS system is also the world's first missile which gives submarines the capability to engage air threats, and the first tube-launched missile that does not emerge in a capsule, but is fired directly from the torpedo tubes.

IDAS is attracting great interest in other countries' navies.