I wasn't going to jump in and say this, being a newbie and all...

[Chiller1064]

.....but there is a serious amount of ignorance about PC game publishing and development with some of the folks here. And, to be frank, it is REALLY discouraging to the development team to read some of this stuff.

I've been on the publishing and development side of this (8+ years in the industry, primarily at Atari and currentlly teaching Game Design at the college level) and know what it is like to spend 14+ hour days working on something for 10+ months only to see people who have never, ever worked in the industry or have ever designed, developed and published a single interactive title flame the hard work other and myself put in to the project.

PC game development is VERY complex. It's not like developing titles for consoles (which is a whole different can of worms) for the simple reason that it is impossible to squash every bug you find and to test the software on every concieveable combination of CPU, Motherboard, Sound Card, Video Card, etc. that are currently floating around in people's homes (not to mention hardware driver versions).

Companies like Atari, UbiSoft, THQ, EA and Microsoft have large in-house QA departments with a wide assortment of test machines- and they also send out builds to private QA firms for testing. On top of that they will also do open and/or closed betas. A lot of time and effort goes into testing, logging bugs, fixing bugs, testing, logging bugs, fixing bugs.... all the way up to and beyond Gold Master. Bug databases are created with all known bugs logged and prioritized for programmers, artist and modellers to reference. It is a long, hard frustrating process that many times requires people to work 18-20 hour shifts over the last 3-4 weeks of a project to get as many issues fixed before sending out the master CD/DVD to replication.

So it is impossible to find every bug and fix it before GM- no matter how hard we try or how much we want it to be perfect.

Gamers want their games and they want it now! They post on publisher, developer and fan site message boards constantly pressing for a game to get done NOW! Gamers call retailers and pester them on when the game is going to be at the store (almost to the minute). If a developer or publisher pushes a release date, then woe to that developer or publisher! Let the flaming begin!!! Developers and publishers are very aware of consumer demands on product and work hard to meet those demands as best they can- that's why they have PR, Media, Marketing, On-Line Community managers. We understand that gamers have high (if not completely unrealistic) expectations and we do work hard to meet those expectations as best we can.

The biggest factor today is simply time and money. There is no "blank check" budget or "open-ended" development schedule- especially in PC game development. No developer has the total freedom to work on something until they believe it is "perfect" nor do publishers have the ability to continue to pour money into projects indefinately. Consumers and retailers demand street dates- and retailers wield a VERY, VERY large hammer (especially with PC titles).

Publishers have to get software placed in retail in order to make back their investment. However, retailers (like the big software retailers like Best Buy and Wal-Mart) have seasonal "reset" dates when they bring in new product- generally Spring (now), Fall/Back To School (August-October), Holiday (November-December) and Post-Holiday (January-Feburary). The summer is the worst time to release software historically. Retailers want product on those reset dates- if you can't make the date, then you don't get in. It's that simple. And if Wal-Mart doesn't take your game, selling to the remainder of the retailers won't make up the difference. So publishers and developers are under extreme pressure to get projects done within a very restrictive timeframe or lose shelf space (which is lost $$$$).

Retailers demand accurate release dates so they can market product on-line with pre-order pages or in those multi-page adverts sandwiched into your Sunday paper called "circulars". If a publisher commits to a street date and then fails to meet that date for any reason- VERY bad things happen. Examples are not having future product carried by the retailer and more frequently paying the retailer a $100K penalty (and then not getting your product placed as well).

Several large software retailers do hand out $100K+ penalties to publishers and for good reason. If a retailer spends money advertising that a game will be out on a specific date, consumers expect it to be in stores because the advertisment says so. If a retailer fails to have that game on shelves, consumers get angry- and angry consumers don't spend money! Retailers make the price of missing a street date so expensive that publishers will make sure the software is available on the promised/contractual date. And frankly, retailers don't care about whether or not a game is buggy- since the retailers work on essentially a consignment policy with publishers it's not costing them anything and they can simply ship units back to the publisher for them to figure out how to deal with the mess. This horrible way of doing business is why you see more and more companies going for the on-line method of distribution- less risk and hassles.

Another factor is production- printing boxes and manuals, replicating DVDs, etc.. Printers and replicators who handle this type of work are busy people who require you to schedule your production assets 6-8 months before the printing and replicating begins. If you miss your date, then you go to the back of the line and hope someone drops out and opens a slot for you. Missing your date here can cost you weeks or months in missing a street date- and they retailers don't care about it.

So, before you bash UbiSoft Romania for purposely releasing a buggy game and flaming them-keep in mind what they are dealing with. Do you honestly believe they wanted to release a buggy SH4 after putting in months of time and effort? Do you honestly believe they wanted to release a buggy SH4 so they could be flamed on multiple message boards across the Internet by people calling to question thier dedication, ethics and professionalism?

Like I said, I've been there and it is very difficult to have to draw a line on the calendar and say "The game has to go NOW- even though it's got known issues". People who work on these types of games are very dedicated people who are passionate about what they do (in UbiSoft Romania's case, WWII submarine games). They work in a very restrictive, highly scheduled, high risk industry where a few mistakes can cost companies millions of dollars in sales and development teams thier jobs.

So please temper your post and be constructive. If you have an issue, post the problem in a calm, constructive manner with as much information as possible as to assist the developer to quickly find and fix the issue. Developers don't mind people posting bugs and issues as long as it's done constructively.

People who work at development studios are gamers too and they do understand your frustration- all we ask is you basically understand where developers are coming from too. The fact that UnbiSoft Romania had a patch ready to go 24 hrs. after release should tell you they care and are working hard to give you all the best sub sim they can.

[Burnspot]

Good post! I think they did a pretty damn good job with SH4 and, as with pretty much any other game out there, there are bound to be bugs. This should not really be a surprise for ANY person who's played computer games for any length of time, especially those "in the know" about communities such as these.

All that being said, SH4 does has some bugs which do defy logic on how they could've been missed (common function keys causing crashes for one), but anyway, on the whole, I think they did a pretty good job on V1.0....the game was playable (except for perhaps the hardcore manual targeting folks). That's more than can be said for some other games in the past.

[gmohr]

All of that is great. And yes this game is now amazing despite its flaws, and will be even more fantastic over time.

But.

The software game industry puts out the lowest quality products imaginable. Consider that if you purchased *anything* else in your life... a car.. a TV.. a shirt whatever and it had just a fraction of the flaws we shrug off in computer games. You'd freak, and you'd be quite correct to do so.

[vois2]

Chiller --

The efforts of your post have merit (and thank you for taking the time to write) however it is important to note that many, many posts and previous discussions have made all the same points you have made, and more. This is coming from someone (me) who has read and participated here for more than two years. In addition these forums are frequented by many who work in the industry.


The actual attitude of the hard core simmers (those who are complaining, and those who are not) -- in particular those of this forum -- is really one more of solving a problem instead of just griping about it. The number of posts in our SH4 Mods forum will start to grow exponentially and the game will be changed substantially (and for the better) many times over in the coming months.


Those of us who can name some of the members of the Romania development team have tremendous admiration for their work and in turn they know us as their toughest customers. The evidence of their intent and pride in their work is clear. As with SH3, the development team will focus more on fixing problems than being downed by many complaints found here and elsewhere. Their patches will correct some important mistakes and oversights, and our modders will take it from there.


For as many gripes as you might read, there are serious background discussions in the Mod forum going on about how to improve the game from the user level. It is recognized that the development team needs to throw out a couple more patches to fix some root material. But come back in 6 months (long after these patches have been issued, and after Ubi has pulled the plug on development financial backing) and you'll find an amazing "new" game courtesy of the collective and constructive efforts of hundreds.

[Chiller1064]

Just from my experience, if we were in the final 24 hrs. before the "drop dead" deadline (i.e. game goes to production or it gets cancelled and everyone cleans out thier desk), if there were no progression stoppers (you could play through all missions and campaigns) but some High priority bugs then we sent it out to production and started work on the patch first thing after everyone got a good 8 hours sleep in their own bed (as opposed to a cot or sleeping bag in thier office or cube).

By this time the entire team has been on 24 hr. shifts for over a week. On some projects, we would sleep in our offices or cubes between build compiling and stay at work for 7-8 days straight. Othertimes we set up a rotating schedule that had some people sleeping and others working. Needless to say it gets pretty stinky and you order out a lot of fast food and Mountian Dew to keep people going. Our wives and kids didn't particularly care for it either.

By the looks of it, UbiSoft was up against a hard date with retailers and it had to go. I'm 100% positive that the UbiSoft Romania team wasn't happy with the decision but has been working hard to get it cleaned up.

[nhall70]

I agree with most of what you're saying here. I think feedback should be constructive and positive, etc.

One thing I think many devs/publishers do wrong has more to do with communication than anything else.

As an example, last week this forum was overflowing with complaints, flaming, bashing and discussion about FSAA and resolution problems. The developers (much to their credit) simply made a quick statement that they were aware of these problems and hoped to correct them in the next patch. As a result, most of the destructive banter on this topic has subsided.

I'm a game developer myself so I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of a tirade. It's no fun at all! However, I've found that a little communication goes a long way.

In the face of silence, the community is left to speculate...and this is where things often go south.

[Chiller1064]

Originally Posted by gmohr

All of that is great. And yes this game is now amazing despite its flaws, and will be even more fantastic over time.

But.

The software game industry puts out the lowest quality products imaginable. Consider that if you purchased *anything* else in your life... a car.. a TV.. a shirt whatever and it had just a fraction of the flaws we shrug off in computer games. You'd freak, and you'd be quite correct to do so.

Well, I have heard of "product recalls" from Ford Pintos to wet cat food- so it happens in all industries. With the gamer crowd there is a distinct focus on what games don't do to the almost total exclusion of what they do do correctly. Plus gamers gripe with more vigor and energy- they are the definition of a very "squeaky wheel".

Software development isn't the same as making a shirt or a TV- it is much more complicated with a high level of consumer expectations and demands. Anyone in the industry who cares to stay in business and make a living works thier tail off to create the best product they can in some very difficult situations (like a retailer pressing for the product 2-3 weeks early or else they drop thier order- if the retailer is Joe's Game Hut, then you keep working. If it is Wal-Mart, then the dev schedule gets revised and the product goes out the door 3-4 weeks early because Wal-Mart has a 70,000 unit pre-order).

So it's not a question of low quality at all- just a really horrible way the whole "developer-publisher-retailer-sonsumer relatiionship" fails to work. It's a whole lot of hard working, dedicated people working through a very disfunctional business model.

[Chiller1064]

Originally Posted by nhall70

I agree with most of what you're saying here. I think feedback should be constructive and positive, etc.

One thing I think many devs/publishers do wrong has more to do with communication than anything else.

As an example, last week this forum was overflowing with complaints, flaming, bashing and discussion about FSAA and resolution problems. The developers (much to their credit) simply made a quick statement that they were aware of these problems and hoped to correct them in the next patch. As a result, most of the destructive banter on this topic has subsided.

I'm a game developer myself so I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of a tirade. It's no fun at all! However, I've found that a little communication goes a long way.

In the face of silence, the community is left to speculate...and this is where things often go south.

And that's where a good On-Line Community Manager is worth his/her weight! I agree, most developers don't communicate very well (either because they don't know how or they are just too darn tired).

[Aimbot]

Great post, but the people who need to listen to you will ignore you.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by Chiller1064

Like I said, I've been there and it is very difficult to have to draw a line on the calendar and say "The game has to go NOW- even though it's got known issues".

personally I like SH4, i think the Devs did a fantastic job, the character models are great, the team did an amazing job with the time constraints they faced.

BUT that being said...

i would MUCH rather the game was delayed another month... or two or three, instead of receive it on the deadline and have vital parts of the sofware not work at all. At some point, the guy who draws the big X on the calendar has to come to a realization that he can deliver a visually appealing program with a load of eye candy that a fair percentage of it doesnt work -OR- he can give the customers what they want, which i think i speak for everyone here when i say most of us want at least the following three things...

1. Compartment Interaction with the buttons and dials and guages
2. More compartments not less (WTF?)
3. at least SOME level of interaction with the crew.

i can do without the light shafts and the rocks on the sea floor business if it means more immersion and realism into the day to day business of running a sub. I - and most players - want to feel like we are IN a movie... not like we are WATCHING one.

The pros and cons of SH4 are about even

on a scale of 1 - 10 i would still give it a 7.5 or 8 which IS NOT THAT BAD.

i dont think a slight dissapointment in the initial product should reflect that the customers dont appreciate it.

i think i speak for most of us here when i say that we appreciate the hard work of UBI and the Devs... BUT we can be patient for another month or two if thats what it takes to turn out quality.

[clayton]

I agree with you. My problem was not with the developers, it was the way in which Ubisoft distributed their product. First to Northern Europe, then the torrents got a hold of it, etc, etc...

Though very, very buggy, SH4 is pretty damn good!

Also, I think we need to seperate the Wal-Mart casual gamer who could care less if Jap tin cans had ASDIC in 43 or 44 and the folks who frequent this forum. This is Subsim; Ubi and the developers know how critical it is here and they know that the members of this board find solutions to problems.

[mookiemookie]

Thank you for your insight. I think a lot of people would do well to read your post.

As an "end user" and not someone on your side of things, I can only offer my uneducated and simplistic gamer thoughts. And I do understand that game developers are gaming fans first (otherwise, why would they be in that line of work!) but from my side of things...

I understand that developers don't release a "drop dead, everything is perfect" version of the game. The constraints you laid out in your post are testament to that. Features that were promised pre-release are cut due to time constraints, etc. And that's understandable. With an unlimited budget and all the time in the world, I bet they would come out with a product that would satisfy even the most hardcore of sub-simmers. It is in no way a reflection of the lack of effort or knowledge on the part of the devlopers. Ignore the posts that insinuate that, because I agree, they're completely baseless.

I think a lot of the frustration from "our end" of things comes from games being released with such widespread game breaking bugs, such as the stadimeter crashing the game in 1.0, and the fact that the "A" key crashes the game...things like that. I find it hard to believe, and correct me if I'm wrong, that even a cursory playthrough from beta testers or what have you would have missed these things. I understand that every hardware configuration can't be tested, and hardware related problems are excusable for that exact reason. But when it's a code/software problem thats so blatantly obvious...that's where a lot of the ire and flaming comes from. It's like "Oh jeez, how could they have missed THAT!?"

Trust in me though, that we do appreciate the products that you guys produce for us. Without you guys, we would only dream of games that allow us to refight the Pacific Submarine war, or whatever games you guys make. You guys make it a reality. Our hopes for a game that satisfies all of our hopes and wishes for that are set impossibly high...but you guys do a hell of a job getting close to realizing them.

Just my $0.02. Take it for what you will.

[TheSatyr]

Chiller,I know where you are coming from. When I beta tested it wasn't unusual for a patch to be released on a friday,and the dev's company forums to be shut down all weekend,just so the devs could actually get in a few days rest without having to go through dozens of threads about how "awful and unplayable" the new patch made the game. The screaming and yelling in a forum made up mostly of 30-40 year olds was rather embarassing...heh. Course 9 times out of ten the complaints would be about how THEY thought things in game should work...while the devs who made the game were obviously wrong about how the game actually worked acording to the posters.

I also remember the time the dev company was fined 200K(I think) by the publisher for finishing a game 3 months late. Money the devs really couldn't afford since it took a big chunk out of what the publishers originally paid the devs to make the game. Also their contract had a clause where the dev company would start getting a percentage off the game once it sold a certain number of units...except it never sold the required number of units. So they got hurt big time by the 3 month delay.

So yeah,I completely understand the pressure devs are under to get their products out the door,so I always give them a 6 month grace period to get their games up to speed.

Because of another incident back then,I understand the publisher's point of view as well...but then that's another story...

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Chiller1064

With the gamer crowd there is a distinct focus on what games don't do to the almost total exclusion of what they do do correctly. Plus gamers gripe with more vigor and energy- they are the definition of a very "squeaky wheel".

Yeah, with gamers there's some kind of retard psychology where people get their expectations absurdly high and then try to outdo each other in ranting and bashing. It's nuts. I'm glad to hear your perspective. Computer games are seriously complex creations, and historically accurate simulations are the most complex of all. With WOW you can give an orc an eyepatch or 8 toes and no one would notice, but if a Group 2 S-class sub has an after torpedo room, it's a problem.

The sad thing is, if you sat 95% of the people down with a dev team to go over a sim, they would be respectful and understanding. On a web forum, way too many freak over everything with the !!!! and the OMG SOMETHING'S WRONG!!! caps.

It's just a game.

[Aimbot]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

The sad thing is, if you sat 95% of the people down with a dev team to go over a sim, they would be respectful and understanding. On a web forum, way too many freak over everything with the !!!! and the OMG SOMETHING'S WRONG!!! caps.

Until scientists invent a way to e-punch this will be the case.