Revisionist history being taught in Europe?

[TheSatyr]

As some one who goes to multiple wargame sites I'm seeing more and more Europeans downplaying the USA's role in WW2.

They say things like "The USA's role in WW2 was minor and the USSR would have won the war on it's own".(Probably true,but the war would have gone on longer...and more countries would have been under the Communists thumbs when it was over.). Or,"The Pacific Theater was unimportant".(even though the Pacific War was the final nail in the coffin of European Colonialism in that region...except for a few exceptions like Hong Kong and Shanghai).

Another thing I'm seeing is a growing call for more WW2 games without any USA involvement.

Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there,but to me there seems to be an ongoing effort in Europe to downplay the USA's accomplishments in WW2.

A case in point being when SH4 was announced. A number of Europeans on the board immediately started complaining that it was going to be a sim of US subs,instead of it being what they wanted...which was yet another U-Boat sim. All the while claiming that the US boats didn't deserve having a game based on them because "they didn't do anything during the war" Losing 52 boats,sinking a large number of Japanese warships and destroying over half of what was the 3rd largest merchant fleet at the beginning of the war being "not doing anything" I guess.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing my Country's past accomplishments put down,denigrated and downplayed and the memory of our dead being insulted both in the PTO and the ETO just because of the world's views of the present administration. I've reached the point where I feel that if there is ever another war in Europe that the USA should just stay the hell out of it and let the Europeans kill each other all they want.

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Some how it doesn't suprise me too much. Europe is on its way to another continental war. Nationalism is on the rise and political correctness and revisionist history will allow a new war to start in the not too distant future. The Germans will loose again.

That is my opinion.

[Kapitan_Phillips]

I've always wanted them to make a WW2 game from the other sides perspective. It'd be a nice change to see what it was like to have the Allies closing in and having few places to run to.

But naturally, if I'd said that anywhere other than here, no doubt I'd get people calling me a Nazi or a Commie or some other name.

[Subnuts]

Originally Posted by waste gate

This is the first I've heard of such a thing. Some how it doesn't suprise me too much. Europe is on its way to another continental war. Nationalism is on the rise and political correctness and revisionist history will allow a new war to start in the not too distant future. The Germans will loose again.

How are the Germans going to lose if the Americans aren't around to singlehandedly kick their asses? :rotfl:

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Subnuts

How are the Germans going to lose if the Americans aren't around to singlehandedly kick their asses? :rotfl:

The Americans did not do it single handedly.

Keep it clean men.

Originally Posted by Subnuts

How are the Germans going to lose if the Americans aren't around to singlehandedly kick their asses? :rotfl:

Perhaps that is the reason the Brits are keeping their Trident capability and the French aren't even debating whether or not to keep their nuclear arms. They know the Germans only too well.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by TheSatyr

As some one who goes to multiple wargame sites I'm seeing more and more Europeans downplaying the USA's role in WW2.

They say things like "The USA's role in WW2 was minor and the USSR would have won the war on it's own".(Probably true,but the war would have gone on longer...and more countries would have been under the Communists thumbs when it was over.). Or,"The Pacific Theater was unimportant".(even though the Pacific War was the final nail in the coffin of European Colonialism in that region...except for a few exceptions like Hong Kong and Shanghai).

Another thing I'm seeing is a growing call for more WW2 games without any USA involvement.

Maybe I'm just seeing things that aren't there,but to me there seems to be an ongoing effort in Europe to downplay the USA's accomplishments in WW2.

A case in point being when SH4 was announced. A number of Europeans on the board immediately started complaining that it was going to be a sim of US subs,instead of it being what they wanted...which was yet another U-Boat sim. All the while claiming that the US boats didn't deserve having a game based on them because "they didn't do anything during the war" Losing 52 boats,sinking a large number of Japanese warships and destroying over half of what was the 3rd largest merchant fleet at the beginning of the war being "not doing anything" I guess.

I guess I'm just tired of seeing my Country's past accomplishments put down,denigrated and downplayed and the memory of our dead being insulted both in the PTO and the ETO just because of the world's views of the present administration. I've reached the point where I feel that if there is ever another war in Europe that the USA should just stay the hell out of it and let the Europeans kill each other all they want.

I don't believe the Soviets could have won. Regardless who says what, the US an its ALlies tied up a tremendous amount of German hardware on the Western Front. I think Germany and the Soviets would have ground to a halt at somewhere inside Russia and some sort of ceasefire would have been formed if the US wasn't involved. Just my opinion.

Your statements that you make that other people have said sound almost like the Iranian pres saying the Jews were never murdered by Germany! DOn't believe it.

-S

[Skybird]

I do not realise an intention here. But I know that many people over here got tired of "USA here", "USA there", and "nothing without USA".

How to weight the war efforts of the many countries is not easy to judge. USA was a great contributor of weapons and materials, and these were one decisive factor to beat Nazi Germany. But without wanting to downplay American losses (ranking amongst the lowest of all major nations) - the real heavy deathtolls were payed by other countries, bot Allies and Axis. Without the not less decisive stubborness of the British, and the not less decisive self-sacrificng combat-spirit of the Russians, these material contributions would have been not sufficient by themselves.

Maybe one only needs to see the US efforts and sacrifices in an exaggerated way, then opinions putting them into relation to other nations' investements maybe appear to sound as downplaying the US role completely. See the complete picture. US was one participant in the war - but not the only one.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

See the complete picture. US was one participant in the war - but not the only one.

That is true, the Brits were a major contributor, and the Russians self sacrafice (Well, this is a missnomer since it wasn't self sacrafice, it was Stalanist forced sacrafice or excution - which is more noble?).

However, Germany had the power to take on Russia and the British at the same time. Only when the Americans entered the war did things turn.

One more thing people forget, AMerica almost single handedly defeated the Japanese at the same time it was forcing its way across Europe.

Its amazing to see people write that America had no hand in WWII. Its actually disgusting and the half million US troops that died over there must be turning in their graves.

-S

PS Do people think for a second that Japan would start attacking Russia from the opposite side if it wasn't worried about AMerica? Russia would have been defeated and we would all be speaking German right now.

[joea]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

That is true, the Brits were a major contributor, and the Russians self sacrafice (Well, this is a missnomer since it wasn't self sacrafice, it was Stalanist forced sacrafice or excution - which is more noble?).

Good points but I strongly disagree with the bold, I've read enough and spoken (IRL and on the net) with enough researchers and especially Russian and those from other ex-Soviet republics to know the patriotic feeling in Russia was genuine. Foreign devils are always worse than one's own, besides, the Slavs faced extermination in a way even Stalin's oppression did not...and believe it or not there was a great deal of genuine enthusiasm for communist ideals.

Originally Posted by Skybird

But without wanting to downplay American losses (ranking amongst the lowest of all major nations) - the real heavy deathtolls were payed by other countries, bot Allies and Axis.

For one reason only:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
George S. Patton

We were there to win!!

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by joea

Good points but I strongly disagree with the bold, I've read enough and spoken (IRL and on the net) with enough researchers and especially Russian and those from other ex-Soviet republics to know the patriotic feeling in Russia was genuine. Foreign devils are always worse than one's own, besides, the Slavs faced extermination in a way even Stalin's oppression did not...and believe it or not there was a great deal of genuine enthusiasm for communist ideals.

I hear ya, but what about the advance or be shot portion of it? That is what I mean. ANyway, yes, they were very patriotic and probably most of them didn't need this warning.

-S

[joea]

Well, my info is that has been exaggerated somewhat. If you're thinking about Stalin's "Not a Step Back" order it was issued in the summer of 1942 or therabouts when the situation, after the miracle of saving Moscow in 41, had been reversed.

Anyway, the revisionist history in Europe I am concerned about is the rise of the xenophobic and anti-semetic extreme right.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by waste gate

For one reason only:
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country.
He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country."
George S. Patton

We were there to win!!

I know that quote and used it myself in the past. However, concerning the context of this topic of how to weight war contributions, it is more or less useless. The Russians lost 24 million people, soldiers and civilians alike, and God knows how many their cities laid in ruins afterwards. How to calculate that with material deliveries from the US and Britain? that's why I said the US were one war faction - amongst others only. And if any of these allies could have won the war all by himself, the Alliae maybe never would have formed up, for there would have been no need for it.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by joea

Well, my info is that has been exaggerated somewhat. If you're thinking about Stalin's "Not a Step Back" order it was issued in the summer of 1942 or therabouts when the situation, after the miracle of saving Moscow in 41, had been reversed.

Anyway, the revisionist history in Europe I am concerned about is the rise of the xenophobic and anti-semetic extreme right.

Give the young people a future perspective and a possebility to have a job in fair conditions, and the problem for the most will shrink dramatically again. It is not by random chance that neonazism is strong in those areas of Germany where the economic future is grim and availability of jobs is low. Poverty is good hunting ground for extremists - political and religious as well. The strength of the alpha wolf needs the weakness of the others.

Anti-Semitism and Neo-Nazism will never be zero, though. If it would remain at controllable and non-threatening levels, we should be satisfied, I think - pragmatism.