Manual targeting help :)

scalelokt · 02-22-07, 01:01 PM

Hi all. So I'm not quite ready for 100% real manual targeting, however I am using the notepad targeting method. So here is my issue... I miss.... a lot. I swear my calculations are correct, and the torpedoes do come very close, but most of the time I'm off. So here is a rundown of what I do before firing a torpedo, maybe you all will see a problem somewhere or have some advice

1. First I set up for a 90 degree angle to the targets future path. That part is pretty easy, so I'll skip all the details

2. I track the target getting its path (bearing) as accurate as possible over time.

3. When it is close enough to me for visual range I identify the target.

4. Once its even closer, say within a thousand meters I go ahead and find the range, AOB, and speed using the notepad.

Here is where I might be going wrong, either when figuring the range or the AOB. When I calculate range I just use the notepad method, and I put the bottom line on where the ship meets the water and the top line on the highest point of the ship I can see. Thats the basic idea right?
When calculating AOB I go to the nav map first. At that point I have drawn a line from the ship showing its future course, and after all the readings I take its very accurate. Next I use the protractor to show the angle the ships course and my current position (I am almost always at a dead stop when firing). When I measure the angle, I use the MIDDLE of the target and the MIDDLE of my uboat to make the calculations (should I be using the very front instead?).

5. After that I make sure the information from the notepad is checkmarked and the TDC is showing a good gyroangle. I also go to the TDC and take a look at what the path of the torpedo will be, it always looks good to me. I wait until the gyroangle is almost 000 so I know the torpedo path will be pretty much a straight shot. Then LOS! 1 minute later: MISS! Its very frustrating and happens much more often than a hit. For what its worth, the torpedo almost always misses a few meters behind the ship, it never crosses the front. Any ideas friends? I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

CaptainAsh · 02-22-07, 01:15 PM

I don t really get your AOB method... it s quite the easiest point though.... you trace your heading, its heading, then use the protractor.
as you re missing by few metters only, I guess your speed calculation are not that bad. So we have the range calucaltion... To me it s the harder because SHIII visual is not as acurate as real visual. If you re always missing by being a bit too slow, it means you re over ranging, your target is actualy closer than you think. Usualy it happens because you don t pick the exact top of the ship.

You re not just 100% realistic. You re over realistic

the notepad method is a real pain in the ass. I m only using the nav map method now...

scalelokt · 02-22-07, 02:34 PM

You know I'm not crazy about the notepad method myself, I think tonight I'll use nav map only and see how it goes. I am using the AOB calculations just like you said, I just wasnt explaining clearly I dont think.

Anyway I think you are right, I must have the range as farther than it really is. I notice that in the recognition manual the top of a ship can be a bit different than what you are seeing through the periscope, because ships through the periscope have a flag on top and there are no flags in recognition manual. I think I have been calculating range using the top of the flag, which may not be right. Either way, hell with notepad, I'll go navmap and see how it goes. Thanks!!

Schultzy · 02-22-07, 02:41 PM

This is nothing to do with working out a solution but, it can cause you to regularly miss by a little bit.
Are you opening your topedo tubes before you fire the torp. If not, it takes a few seconds and could cause the miss...

If you do that already, then I'm going to have to leave it for the more inteligent members of the board.

squigian · 02-22-07, 02:45 PM

I have a crude but effective method for hitting ships. I use the 3:15 method for discerning my target's speed first (e.g. 6kts). Then, I compare it to my torpedo's speed (e.g. 30kts). Finally, I position myself perpendicular to the ship's course, at a distance under 1,000m away, preferably. Divide the torpedo speed by the target speed to get the ratio, in this case 5:1. This means that for every 5 metres the torpedo travels, the target will have moved 1 metre. So, if you are a kilometre away, you lead your target by 200m. I try to avoid attempting anything other than near 90-degree shots - if I am forced to do otherwise, I have made a mistake in position myself. Gets rid of the annoying maths too.

Heibges · 02-22-07, 03:02 PM

I have found it easiest just to enter the values into the TDC myself.

Manual TDC Steps

1. Spot your target.
2. Determine targets course.
3. Using Matching Speed Method, determine targets speed. Basically, turn onto the same course as your target, and adjust your speed until there is no change in bearing.
4. Enter the Speed into the TDC.

5. Determine AOB. If you are on a perpendicular course to your target's course (not to be confused with 90° AOB) there is a defined relationship between AOB and Bearing. REMEMBER, this is true only if your courses are perpendicular to each other.

Targets Moving Right to Left
Bearing 45° = AOB 45° port
Bearing 20° = AOB 70° port
Bearing 10° = AOB 80° port

Targets Moving Left to Right
Bearing 315° = AOB 45° starboard
Bearing 340° = AOB 70° starboard
Bearing 350° = AOB 80° starboard

If the target is 1200m or under, my Firing Point leads the target by 10°.
If the target is over 1200m, my Firing Point leads the target by 20°.

6. Determine Range. It is much easier to measure the length of the target as opposed to the height. Especially in rough weather. This is the MILS method for determing range. Mearsure the length of the target using the scale on the periscope, and compare to the range chart.

Target..............1200m.........1000m.........80 0m........600m
C2 Merchant........6................8...............1 0............12
C3 Merchant........7................9...............1 1.5..........14

Practical Example

I spot a target on the horizon . I figure out the target is on course 180°. I turn onto course 180°, and adjust my speed so there is not change in Bearing with the Target.

I enter this speed into the TDC.

I plot out my overhaul manuever based on target course and speed.

I plan my Firing Point to be about 1000m from target.

Based on whether the target is moving right to left or left to right, I determine if AOB will be Port or Starboard.

I enter AOB 80° pt or stb into the TDC.

My last course correction of my overhaul maneuver should put me on a perpendicular course with the target.

I measure the length of the target using the scale on the periscope.

Enter this range into the TDC.

Make sure I am between 300 and 1200m. If it is then AOB is OK.
If range is greater than 1200m change AOB to 70 pt starboard.

Wait for target to reach Firing Point and fire your eels!

Corsair · 02-22-07, 03:02 PM

Once you are on a course 90° from your target it's pretty easy.
I don't use the notepad, prefer to input data directly into the dials. (I use 6 dials simfeeling mod so have the dials in the scope/uzo views)
Get your target speed using any method (I usually use the 3'15" when possible). Having your scope/uzo on 0° bearing, input 90° AOB port or starboard following the direction your target travels, input speed and estimated distance (precise distance is not important) Reset your TDC to auto. Turn your scope left or right to read 000 gyroangle. Open your selected tube(s) doors - very important. Once the desired hit place of your target crosses your scope/uzo croshair, shoot...

CaptainAsh · 02-22-07, 04:37 PM

Heibges's method has some draw back though...

For the speed calculation you need to match the speed of your target on his own course. Actualy if you have some enemy's activities around it s not that simple... expecialy if your target is moving 8 knots or more...

Then for the range calculation you need to be at his perpendicular. The projected lenght is the actual lenght only at the perpendicular. That s why we used height actualy

without the contact update on nav map (which is giving you the real range automaticaly actualy), having an accurate range is THE central piece... with range and bearing at two times, you have heading and speed. Still you need to get that damn range

.

Don t forget, the close you are, the less inacuracy is important. The range of your shot should not be determined by your shot, nor by the chance to be spoted before firing but by the time the escort will need to be on you

Heibges · 02-22-07, 05:54 PM

Matching speed method is good up to 17 knots depending on the top speed of your uboat. For sure, you only want to use this on the surface because you will really deplete your batteries trying to use it submerged at flank speed.

MILS method useful at all AOB's not just perpendicular. You need columns in your range chart for each AOB. I just have so much subsim experience that I always end up in the perpendicular position so I have never bothered.

For example.

A ship that measures 10mils 90°, would only measure 6mils at 45° AOB.

To give a modern example, a T-72 Soviet MBT is about 2.5 mils at 2000m perpendicular, but about 1.7 mils at 2000m at a 45° angle.

This shows how SH3 is very realistic. Another reason why uboat tonnage was reduced as the Uboats were forced below the surface is that it is much easier to collect fire control data (speed, range, and AOB) surfaced than when you are submerged.

It is much easier and more precise to spend an hour on the surface getting the speed through matching speed as opposed to the 3.15 minute method. In heavy seas and/or fog you might not have much more than 3 minutes of total visibility.

scalelokt · 02-24-07, 01:37 PM

Great responses, thanks guys!! I have been doing full manual targeting without the notepad and having great results! As always, thanks for the help!

02-22-07, 01:01 PM	#1
scalelokt Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 400 meters to your right, calculating your speed Posts: 126 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Manual targeting help :) Hi all. So I'm not quite ready for 100% real manual targeting, however I am using the notepad targeting method. So here is my issue... I miss.... a lot. I swear my calculations are correct, and the torpedoes do come very close, but most of the time I'm off. So here is a rundown of what I do before firing a torpedo, maybe you all will see a problem somewhere or have some advice 1. First I set up for a 90 degree angle to the targets future path. That part is pretty easy, so I'll skip all the details 2. I track the target getting its path (bearing) as accurate as possible over time. 3. When it is close enough to me for visual range I identify the target. 4. Once its even closer, say within a thousand meters I go ahead and find the range, AOB, and speed using the notepad. Here is where I might be going wrong, either when figuring the range or the AOB. When I calculate range I just use the notepad method, and I put the bottom line on where the ship meets the water and the top line on the highest point of the ship I can see. Thats the basic idea right? When calculating AOB I go to the nav map first. At that point I have drawn a line from the ship showing its future course, and after all the readings I take its very accurate. Next I use the protractor to show the angle the ships course and my current position (I am almost always at a dead stop when firing). When I measure the angle, I use the MIDDLE of the target and the MIDDLE of my uboat to make the calculations (should I be using the very front instead?). 5. After that I make sure the information from the notepad is checkmarked and the TDC is showing a good gyroangle. I also go to the TDC and take a look at what the path of the torpedo will be, it always looks good to me. I wait until the gyroangle is almost 000 so I know the torpedo path will be pretty much a straight shot. Then LOS! 1 minute later: MISS! Its very frustrating and happens much more often than a hit. For what its worth, the torpedo almost always misses a few meters behind the ship, it never crosses the front. Any ideas friends? I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong.

02-22-07, 03:02 PM	#6
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I have found it easiest just to enter the values into the TDC myself. Manual TDC Steps 1. Spot your target. 2. Determine targets course. 3. Using Matching Speed Method, determine targets speed. Basically, turn onto the same course as your target, and adjust your speed until there is no change in bearing. 4. Enter the Speed into the TDC. 5. Determine AOB. If you are on a perpendicular course to your target's course (not to be confused with 90° AOB) there is a defined relationship between AOB and Bearing. REMEMBER, this is true only if your courses are perpendicular to each other. Targets Moving Right to Left Bearing 45° = AOB 45° port Bearing 20° = AOB 70° port Bearing 10° = AOB 80° port Targets Moving Left to Right Bearing 315° = AOB 45° starboard Bearing 340° = AOB 70° starboard Bearing 350° = AOB 80° starboard If the target is 1200m or under, my Firing Point leads the target by 10°. If the target is over 1200m, my Firing Point leads the target by 20°. 6. Determine Range. It is much easier to measure the length of the target as opposed to the height. Especially in rough weather. This is the MILS method for determing range. Mearsure the length of the target using the scale on the periscope, and compare to the range chart. Target..............1200m.........1000m.........80 0m........600m C2 Merchant........6................8...............1 0............12 C3 Merchant........7................9...............1 1.5..........14 Practical Example I spot a target on the horizon . I figure out the target is on course 180°. I turn onto course 180°, and adjust my speed so there is not change in Bearing with the Target. I enter this speed into the TDC. I plot out my overhaul manuever based on target course and speed. I plan my Firing Point to be about 1000m from target. Based on whether the target is moving right to left or left to right, I determine if AOB will be Port or Starboard. I enter AOB 80° pt or stb into the TDC. My last course correction of my overhaul maneuver should put me on a perpendicular course with the target. I measure the length of the target using the scale on the periscope. Enter this range into the TDC. Make sure I am between 300 and 1200m. If it is then AOB is OK. If range is greater than 1200m change AOB to 70 pt starboard. Wait for target to reach Firing Point and fire your eels! __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

02-22-07, 03:02 PM	#7
Corsair Ace of the Deep Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Toulouse France Posts: 1,140 Downloads: 51 Uploads: 0	Once you are on a course 90° from your target it's pretty easy. I don't use the notepad, prefer to input data directly into the dials. (I use 6 dials simfeeling mod so have the dials in the scope/uzo views) Get your target speed using any method (I usually use the 3'15" when possible). Having your scope/uzo on 0° bearing, input 90° AOB port or starboard following the direction your target travels, input speed and estimated distance (precise distance is not important) Reset your TDC to auto. Turn your scope left or right to read 000 gyroangle. Open your selected tube(s) doors - very important. Once the desired hit place of your target crosses your scope/uzo croshair, shoot... __________________ NYGM 3.4A / Living SH3 V5.1 + SH3 Commander

02-22-07, 05:54 PM	#9
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	Matching speed method is good up to 17 knots depending on the top speed of your uboat. For sure, you only want to use this on the surface because you will really deplete your batteries trying to use it submerged at flank speed. MILS method useful at all AOB's not just perpendicular. You need columns in your range chart for each AOB. I just have so much subsim experience that I always end up in the perpendicular position so I have never bothered. For example. A ship that measures 10mils 90°, would only measure 6mils at 45° AOB. To give a modern example, a T-72 Soviet MBT is about 2.5 mils at 2000m perpendicular, but about 1.7 mils at 2000m at a 45° angle. This shows how SH3 is very realistic. Another reason why uboat tonnage was reduced as the Uboats were forced below the surface is that it is much easier to collect fire control data (speed, range, and AOB) surfaced than when you are submerged. It is much easier and more precise to spend an hour on the surface getting the speed through matching speed as opposed to the 3.15 minute method. In heavy seas and/or fog you might not have much more than 3 minutes of total visibility. __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

02-22-07, 01:15 PM	#2
CaptainAsh Machinist's Mate Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 128 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	I don t really get your AOB method... it s quite the easiest point though.... you trace your heading, its heading, then use the protractor. as you re missing by few metters only, I guess your speed calculation are not that bad. So we have the range calucaltion... To me it s the harder because SHIII visual is not as acurate as real visual. If you re always missing by being a bit too slow, it means you re over ranging, your target is actualy closer than you think. Usualy it happens because you don t pick the exact top of the ship. You re not just 100% realistic. You re over realistic the notepad method is a real pain in the ass. I m only using the nav map method now...

02-22-07, 02:34 PM	#3
scalelokt Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 400 meters to your right, calculating your speed Posts: 126 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	You know I'm not crazy about the notepad method myself, I think tonight I'll use nav map only and see how it goes. I am using the AOB calculations just like you said, I just wasnt explaining clearly I dont think. Anyway I think you are right, I must have the range as farther than it really is. I notice that in the recognition manual the top of a ship can be a bit different than what you are seeing through the periscope, because ships through the periscope have a flag on top and there are no flags in recognition manual. I think I have been calculating range using the top of the flag, which may not be right. Either way, hell with notepad, I'll go navmap and see how it goes. Thanks!!

02-22-07, 02:45 PM	#5
squigian Helmsman Join Date: May 2006 Location: London, UK Posts: 107 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I have a crude but effective method for hitting ships. I use the 3:15 method for discerning my target's speed first (e.g. 6kts). Then, I compare it to my torpedo's speed (e.g. 30kts). Finally, I position myself perpendicular to the ship's course, at a distance under 1,000m away, preferably. Divide the torpedo speed by the target speed to get the ratio, in this case 5:1. This means that for every 5 metres the torpedo travels, the target will have moved 1 metre. So, if you are a kilometre away, you lead your target by 200m. I try to avoid attempting anything other than near 90-degree shots - if I am forced to do otherwise, I have made a mistake in position myself. Gets rid of the annoying maths too.

02-22-07, 04:37 PM	#8
CaptainAsh Machinist's Mate Join Date: Feb 2007 Posts: 128 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	Heibges's method has some draw back though... For the speed calculation you need to match the speed of your target on his own course. Actualy if you have some enemy's activities around it s not that simple... expecialy if your target is moving 8 knots or more... Then for the range calculation you need to be at his perpendicular. The projected lenght is the actual lenght only at the perpendicular. That s why we used height actualy without the contact update on nav map (which is giving you the real range automaticaly actualy), having an accurate range is THE central piece... with range and bearing at two times, you have heading and speed. Still you need to get that damn range . Don t forget, the close you are, the less inacuracy is important. The range of your shot should not be determined by your shot, nor by the chance to be spoted before firing but by the time the escort will need to be on you

02-24-07, 01:37 PM	#10
scalelokt Machinist's Mate Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: 400 meters to your right, calculating your speed Posts: 126 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	Great responses, thanks guys!! I have been doing full manual targeting without the notepad and having great results! As always, thanks for the help!