Evading torpedoes in the FFG

Wolfhound · 03-05-08, 02:08 AM

I know this has been talked about before but I haven't really been able to find an adequate solution for it. As far as I can tell the FFG is pretty much helpless against torpedoes. I can evade fine in the subs, as the CMs seem to work well, but is the Nixie rather ineffecteve or is it just me? ... I've tried turning to get it to turn into the torpedo's path but that doesn't seem to work very well.... actually I did trick one with it I'm pretty sure but the others hit me before I could see the result. Speaking of which, what good is any CM that can only fool one torpedo at a time and then needs to be lengthily redeployed when any good sub skipper, even an AI one, always sends more than one torpedo after you?

Any tips evading torpedoes with the FFG, or am I right? Are you pretty much dead if they lock onto you?

Dr.Sid · 03-05-08, 05:43 AM

Nixie is rather ineffective, right.

But you get it all wrong (most people do). You think about it as a game. To get shot at is no big thing, so you thing how to avoid the torpedo.

In real life you should think about how to not get shot at in the first place. And this is the main defense against torpedoes in FFG too.

When you simply can't avoid it, there is practically only thing you can do, but it works quite well. It's running. FFG has plenty of speed. You must get out of the incoming torpedo seeking area before the torpedo gets there. For that it is usefull to know where exactly torpedo aims. While sub is blind at high speeds, FFG can use buoys for that.

Also FFG can simply outrun some torpedoes. Not that it's faster, but since the torpedo has limited range and is shot from some distance, the chance of evading it by simply running away from it is quite big.
There are same tables here in thread which shows ranges and speeds at which you can evade each torpedo.

Both methods are very useful for subs too.

sonar732 · 03-05-08, 08:35 AM

From the FFG guide at Commanders Academy & Dive...

= Anti Torpedo Warfare =

== The sensor war ==

Against torpedoes, the sensor war is simple. As long as you have a working sonar, you should be able to detect any torpedoes in the area. This means a max speed for ownship sensors, or the use of sonobuoys.

The first order of the day may be an evasive maneuver, so as to invalidate a firing solution, but the second is determining what kind of torpedo has been fired, and on who.

== Know your enemy ==

In DW there are three types of torpedoes.

# Wakehoming
# Acoustic
# Wireguided Acoustic

=== The wakehoming torpedo ===
...is a special case. Unless fired from very close to point blank, it's easily avoided.

If it is fired with a lead, either stopping or mirroring your course will make it a wasted shot. If you hold a speed of 4 knots, you're no longer making the wake it homes on. It can however, home directly on your hull, should it get close enough. (~500m, lwami ~50)

If fired into the wake you've just created, on the other hand, they're coming for you. Unless the torpedo will need too much time getting to it, so that it expires before then.

If it does get on your trail, your best chances will be with maneuvering, though this may be an exercise in futility.

=== The Acoustic torpedo ===

The best thing is to get out of its path. These are nearly always fired on a solution, and maneuvering to invalidate the solution it was fired on will then make it miss - unless its fired from close enough not to matter.

'''If wireguided''' the one who fired it can resteer it, and it's a cat and mouse game of trying to make him steer it wrong. With the odds generally strongly in his favour. You'll have to rob him of his sensors, which is not quite doable should he have external sensors (UUV), or even rob him of his life. If he's dead he can't guide. (easier said than done.)

Should getting away not be an option, two things might help. First, the nixie towed decoy. This will create a racket when in the water, so should not be deployed when not needed. (Todo: verify)

Secondly, slow down. It doesn't matter how noisy the nixie is if you're outnoising it. If you slow down to 9 knots or less you even get the bonus of the hull passive, whose primary use is the detection and tracking of torpedoes. It will also show ship-relative, which is useful for telling if it homes on you or the nixie.

''LWAMI note: Since the torpedoes no longer detonate on the nixie, you probably want to make sure you're not right behind it''

Dr.Sid · 03-05-08, 10:24 AM

AFAIK noise of the target only affects detection range. Once the target is detected and locked, it will not be switched, even if more noisy target appears near (or better return for active).
So the point is to prepare target which will be acquired before you can be acquired. Both active and passive torpedo sensors have small range, I guess you won't be able to be quiet enough so the torpedo would ignore you when you get into its acquisition cone. So moving slow has no sense. You just need to arrange it so nixie enters the torpedo's acquisition cone before you.

Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works.
Smoking them before they can shoot works even better.

As you mentioned, firing back should be part of the evasion !

Molon Labe · 03-05-08, 11:31 AM

A quick LWAMI related note: the note supra is out of date. Here's the deal.

When DW 1.04 came out, detonate-on-decoy settings became adjustable settings. Because players now had a choice in the matter, there was no need for the LWAMI change that made torpedoes pass through decoys, so the first LWAMI after 1.04 had this feature removed. But, it didn't take long for complaints to come in about the Nixie being completely worthless if it didn't detonate, along with some speculative realism concerns. So, the current version of LWAMI reinstated the no-detonations-on-decoys feature for expendable decoys, while the towed decoys remained subject to the .ini settings.

Molon Labe · 03-05-08, 11:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works.
Smoking them before they can shoot works even better.

Assuming the .ini settings allow detonations on the towed decoy:

1. Towed decoys are nominally effective in a tail chase situation.
2. Towed decoys are as effective as expendable decoys for breaking a lock by an acquired torpedo. Just as when using an expendable decoy, the evading ship must cause the torpedo sensor to sweep over the decoy. In the FFG, this is done by performing an S-turn. The difficulty is knowing when to perform the S-turn without the use of an active intercept sensor.

While I'm commenting though, I want to express agreement that the most effective evasion tactic for the FFG is dragging. You can beat a USET or 53-56K by dragging alone unless they were fired from something like 4nm (check the NE range chart for an exact figure). Against a UGST salvo, dragging will likely cause a spacing between the torpedoes in the salvo that might allow time for Nixie redeployment.

Wolfhound · 03-05-08, 01:44 PM

I'm doing a little better now. I think part of the problem was that I wasn't turning hard enough with the nixie streamed for it to be an effective decoy... the situation that really got me enough to make this post was the little surprise in the "Gunboat Diplomacy" mission. I was hit with a torpedo very shortly after knowing what happened... my sonar operator was good enough to say "torpedo in the water" sometime in between during the 20 or so "loud explosions" from the gun battle with the destroyer.

First thing I tried was running 180 degrees from the bearing I was shot at from, streaming the nixie and zig-zagging... which didn't seem to work out very well. Also the destroyer's guns had damaged my torpedo tubes so I was pretty much helpless until I could get the helo aloft.

SeaQueen · 03-05-08, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wolfhound

I can evade fine in the subs, as the CMs seem to work well, but is the Nixie rather ineffecteve or is it just me?

It's not the ultimate countermeasure, no.

Quote:

Speaking of which, what good is any CM that can only fool one torpedo at a time and then needs to be lengthily redeployed when any good sub skipper, even an AI one, always sends more than one torpedo after you?

It's one less torpedo you need to evade the hard way.

Quote:

Any tips evading torpedoes with the FFG, or am I right? Are you pretty much dead if they lock onto you?

It depends. I'm going to second that the best way to avoid torpedoes in the FFG is to not have them shot at you in the first place. Speed is the way to do that. One of the disadvantages of submarines is that for them to remain stealthy, they must go slow, and for conventional submarines it's even worse because they're not even capable of high sustained speeds. Surface ships will always be less stealthy than submarines, so you can't play them like a submarine. Rather, it's better to go faster, and take advantage of your speed and maneuverability.

Speed is important because it limits the space in which a submarine can originate and pass within his torpedo range of you. The exact size of that space can actually be calculated by making different assumptions about the target's speed.

The other thing is, to zig zag every few minutes. That has the effect of spoiling any firing solution a submarine might have on you and also makes it harder for any submarines to plot a course to put themselves in torpedo range. I always plan on that being about 10Nmi because the wakehomers in the game have that range.

I also can't help but wonder if crossing your own wake might confuse wake-homing torpedoes in the game. I need to experiment with that.

Wolfhound · 03-07-08, 12:49 AM

Speaking of wakehomers, I haven't had to deal with those in the FFG, just the acoustic ones. Avoiding them is one thing, but you have to know what you're dealing with first. I suppose you could use the towed array to classify them. I know when I'm in the Kilo warships will invariably try to run from wakehomers like any other kind of torpedo. Since only the warships hear the torpedoes and run, falling into the trap, I never use wakehomers on cargo or supply ships as they aren't that effective there, unless you're directly behind the ship, but a normal torpedo would be just as good.

Dr.Sid · 03-07-08, 05:24 AM

On the other hand, if you are in Kilo, especially chinese Kilo, wakehomers has much better range and speed than any other torpedo.

SeaQueen · 03-07-08, 09:56 AM

Yeah... really... for me they're my weapon of choice. The other thing that's nice about them is tha they're easy to shoot. They're basically point and shoot.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

On the other hand, if you are in Kilo, especially chinese Kilo, wakehomers has much better range and speed than any other torpedo.

goldorak · 03-07-08, 12:21 PM

Don't forget that with the frigate you get the Mh-60R, use it to go down the bearing the enemy torpedo is incoming and use the dipping sonar to sneak out the sub.
With luck you'll get a contact and give the skipper a little suprise on his head. :p
In lwami : frigate+mh-60R is a very deadly combination against sub skippers.

Dr.Sid · 03-07-08, 05:17 PM

Yes .. it's good to think about FFG as movable helo base.

SeaQueen · 03-07-08, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr.Sid

Yes .. it's good to think about FFG as movable helo base.

Definitely. It's sonar is less capable than the DDGs. It's got fewer and less capable missiles. The helo, ultimately, is the long-arm of the FFG. Effective helo use is the key to really knowing how to fight the FFG.

TLAM Strike · 03-15-08, 01:09 PM

Don't forget the SONOBUOYS. They can be one of the most helpful things to have in torp evason, you just need to drop them before the fish come your way (unless its a long range shot). The LOBs from two buoys can help you pinpoint the location of the incoming torpedo, determin its type and weather or not its pointed at you. DICASS in active mode can also give you a fantastic picture of whats coming your way if you know how to read the gram. And best of all you can go as fast as you want with out the buoy being washed out.

03-05-08, 02:08 AM	#1
Wolfhound Sailor man Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 43 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Evading torpedoes in the FFG I know this has been talked about before but I haven't really been able to find an adequate solution for it. As far as I can tell the FFG is pretty much helpless against torpedoes. I can evade fine in the subs, as the CMs seem to work well, but is the Nixie rather ineffecteve or is it just me? ... I've tried turning to get it to turn into the torpedo's path but that doesn't seem to work very well.... actually I did trick one with it I'm pretty sure but the others hit me before I could see the result. Speaking of which, what good is any CM that can only fool one torpedo at a time and then needs to be lengthily redeployed when any good sub skipper, even an AI one, always sends more than one torpedo after you? Any tips evading torpedoes with the FFG, or am I right? Are you pretty much dead if they lock onto you?

03-05-08, 11:31 AM	#5
Molon Labe Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Along the Watchtower Posts: 3,810 Downloads: 27 Uploads: 5	A quick LWAMI related note: the note supra is out of date. Here's the deal. When DW 1.04 came out, detonate-on-decoy settings became adjustable settings. Because players now had a choice in the matter, there was no need for the LWAMI change that made torpedoes pass through decoys, so the first LWAMI after 1.04 had this feature removed. But, it didn't take long for complaints to come in about the Nixie being completely worthless if it didn't detonate, along with some speculative realism concerns. So, the current version of LWAMI reinstated the no-detonations-on-decoys feature for expendable decoys, while the towed decoys remained subject to the .ini settings. __________________ Last edited by Molon Labe; 03-05-08 at 11:46 AM.

03-15-08, 01:09 PM	#15
TLAM Strike Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Rochester, New York Posts: 8,633 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 6	Don't forget the SONOBUOYS. They can be one of the most helpful things to have in torp evason, you just need to drop them before the fish come your way (unless its a long range shot). The LOBs from two buoys can help you pinpoint the location of the incoming torpedo, determin its type and weather or not its pointed at you. DICASS in active mode can also give you a fantastic picture of whats coming your way if you know how to read the gram. And best of all you can go as fast as you want with out the buoy being washed out. __________________

03-05-08, 05:43 AM	#2
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Nixie is rather ineffective, right. But you get it all wrong (most people do). You think about it as a game. To get shot at is no big thing, so you thing how to avoid the torpedo. In real life you should think about how to not get shot at in the first place. And this is the main defense against torpedoes in FFG too. When you simply can't avoid it, there is practically only thing you can do, but it works quite well. It's running. FFG has plenty of speed. You must get out of the incoming torpedo seeking area before the torpedo gets there. For that it is usefull to know where exactly torpedo aims. While sub is blind at high speeds, FFG can use buoys for that. Also FFG can simply outrun some torpedoes. Not that it's faster, but since the torpedo has limited range and is shot from some distance, the chance of evading it by simply running away from it is quite big. There are same tables here in thread which shows ranges and speeds at which you can evade each torpedo. Both methods are very useful for subs too.

03-05-08, 08:35 AM	#3
sonar732 The Old Man Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Central MO Posts: 1,562 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	From the FFG guide at Commanders Academy & Dive... = Anti Torpedo Warfare = == The sensor war == Against torpedoes, the sensor war is simple. As long as you have a working sonar, you should be able to detect any torpedoes in the area. This means a max speed for ownship sensors, or the use of sonobuoys. The first order of the day may be an evasive maneuver, so as to invalidate a firing solution, but the second is determining what kind of torpedo has been fired, and on who. == Know your enemy == In DW there are three types of torpedoes. # Wakehoming # Acoustic # Wireguided Acoustic === The wakehoming torpedo === ...is a special case. Unless fired from very close to point blank, it's easily avoided. If it is fired with a lead, either stopping or mirroring your course will make it a wasted shot. If you hold a speed of 4 knots, you're no longer making the wake it homes on. It can however, home directly on your hull, should it get close enough. (~500m, lwami ~50) If fired into the wake you've just created, on the other hand, they're coming for you. Unless the torpedo will need too much time getting to it, so that it expires before then. If it does get on your trail, your best chances will be with maneuvering, though this may be an exercise in futility. === The Acoustic torpedo === The best thing is to get out of its path. These are nearly always fired on a solution, and maneuvering to invalidate the solution it was fired on will then make it miss - unless its fired from close enough not to matter. '''If wireguided''' the one who fired it can resteer it, and it's a cat and mouse game of trying to make him steer it wrong. With the odds generally strongly in his favour. You'll have to rob him of his sensors, which is not quite doable should he have external sensors (UUV), or even rob him of his life. If he's dead he can't guide. (easier said than done.) Should getting away not be an option, two things might help. First, the nixie towed decoy. This will create a racket when in the water, so should not be deployed when not needed. (Todo: verify) Secondly, slow down. It doesn't matter how noisy the nixie is if you're outnoising it. If you slow down to 9 knots or less you even get the bonus of the hull passive, whose primary use is the detection and tracking of torpedoes. It will also show ship-relative, which is useful for telling if it homes on you or the nixie. ''LWAMI note: Since the torpedoes no longer detonate on the nixie, you probably want to make sure you're not right behind it''

03-05-08, 10:24 AM	#4
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	AFAIK noise of the target only affects detection range. Once the target is detected and locked, it will not be switched, even if more noisy target appears near (or better return for active). So the point is to prepare target which will be acquired before you can be acquired. Both active and passive torpedo sensors have small range, I guess you won't be able to be quiet enough so the torpedo would ignore you when you get into its acquisition cone. So moving slow has no sense. You just need to arrange it so nixie enters the torpedo's acquisition cone before you. Anyway I have never successfully used nixie and I'm not even trying any more. Getting away or simply running works. Smoking them before they can shoot works even better. As you mentioned, firing back should be part of the evasion !

03-05-08, 01:44 PM	#7
Wolfhound Sailor man Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 43 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I'm doing a little better now. I think part of the problem was that I wasn't turning hard enough with the nixie streamed for it to be an effective decoy... the situation that really got me enough to make this post was the little surprise in the "Gunboat Diplomacy" mission. I was hit with a torpedo very shortly after knowing what happened... my sonar operator was good enough to say "torpedo in the water" sometime in between during the 20 or so "loud explosions" from the gun battle with the destroyer. First thing I tried was running 180 degrees from the bearing I was shot at from, streaming the nixie and zig-zagging... which didn't seem to work out very well. Also the destroyer's guns had damaged my torpedo tubes so I was pretty much helpless until I could get the helo aloft.

03-07-08, 12:49 AM	#9
Wolfhound Sailor man Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 43 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	Speaking of wakehomers, I haven't had to deal with those in the FFG, just the acoustic ones. Avoiding them is one thing, but you have to know what you're dealing with first. I suppose you could use the towed array to classify them. I know when I'm in the Kilo warships will invariably try to run from wakehomers like any other kind of torpedo. Since only the warships hear the torpedoes and run, falling into the trap, I never use wakehomers on cargo or supply ships as they aren't that effective there, unless you're directly behind the ship, but a normal torpedo would be just as good.

03-07-08, 05:24 AM	#10
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	On the other hand, if you are in Kilo, especially chinese Kilo, wakehomers has much better range and speed than any other torpedo.

03-07-08, 12:21 PM	#12
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Don't forget that with the frigate you get the Mh-60R, use it to go down the bearing the enemy torpedo is incoming and use the dipping sonar to sneak out the sub. With luck you'll get a contact and give the skipper a little suprise on his head. :p In lwami : frigate+mh-60R is a very deadly combination against sub skippers.

03-07-08, 05:17 PM	#13
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Yes .. it's good to think about FFG as movable helo base.