GWX AI or the "Spiral of death" experience

[gasparweb]

Hi Kaleun's!
Not another patrol log, just a short story and a few questions.
First of all a few pre-concepts:
1) I'm a FAN of GWX, wich is the main actor of the story
2) I'm playing with 70% Realism (free camera, weapon officer and maybe something more)
3) Is October of 1939, Im in a mission from Wilhelmshaven to grid BE99 (nice grid, risky trip )
4) English is not my native language (as you can read), sorry!

The patrols begin at night (23:00) so, when my VIIB reached the English Channel (or La Manche) the sun is up and the day is clear...
After a few of immersions - hydrophones - surface cycles, i decide to go at standard velocity at 6m using binoculars to find somethig (the fun part is comming).

Ten minutes from that... WO says "Warship spotted sir!" 3000 m, bearing ~10º
OK! Im going to deck, UZO... YES, there is a DD patroling (he dont has detected me yet). There are 3 "mini boats whit torpedoes" too (sorry forget his name...PT?)surroundig the zone...

After a short evaluation (distance, weather...) im going to periscope depth.
Of course, sooner or later, the DD will detect me, but...im more safe down! (Maybe someone will keep on surface, but there is no space to pass through).
Suddenly (when the depth gauge marks the 12m), the DD turns to my position... Im detected...

The bastard is comming at 35knts and the "mini boats whit torpedoes" are hurry too (They are at mayor distance).
I have to go down, but my nose say that maybe the waters are too shallow...(I dont wont ping the seas to konw the depth, so i cheat a little and go to ship view... just 38-45 meters to ground...). Setting new depth to 35m, Silent runnig, 2Knts, and searching for the DD bafles... what a glorious patrol!
The Destroyer is in attack run, drops some Depth Charge (20-30m away). No damage, the bastard is moving away from my aft torpedo tubes... 300 maybe 400 mts..
Is time to act! Periscope depth, Open Aft torpedo tube, Lock on target, now is at 580 mts... wait a little.... 650mts... FIRE!... no time to hollywood scenes... depth to 35.... and wait.... wait...HIT! She is going down! (Luck!):p

Ufff... surfacing is too risky, too many warships sound contacts on the map...
And now the apocalipsys start !

Seems like a "Destroyers Party!"All the bastards are commig, my SonarMan counts FIVE!!!! No more hero Kaleun is possible now...

GAME PAUSE - SAVE - SUBISM FORUMS: "HELP!!!"

Experts Kaleun's im open to your ideas...
Running away (How?)
Combat (What? Are you sure? How?)
Praying (Im not religious)

Thanks in advance!

[AVGWarhawk]

Your english is fine!!


1. One ping for depth will not really ruin your day. Go ahead and ping for depth. Then use what you can. The deeper the better.

2. Go into silent running, set helm at 2kts. Change course often.

Your chances in shallow water with 5 DD are not great.

[Mooncatt]

spot on warhawk.
and when he says chances against 5 DD`s aint great hes right as i found out last night in scapa

[_Seth_]

Hi mate! try and zig-zag a lot, and bring the DD's on a collision course with each other. That way you could buy yourself some precious time. And when the DD's right overhead droppin' ashcans at you, go to flank speed for just a moment to get away or alter course(i dont think they will detect you in all the noise from the DD & DC.). Remember, mate, silence is your friend!
Good luck!

[Abd_von_Mumit]

I'd say your chances are equal zero. Have a look at that:
http://www.vae.pl/shiii/070116-01/Log_2.html
It's my lat patrol in my first GWX mission. After being spotted at 1711 I managed to sink 1 of the DD's, and after 15 hours of being severly hunted I got sunk in the morning at 0814 next day.

So I think the best you can do against as many enemies in such shallow waters is to LEARN. Use your hydrophone often, try to understand, what they do and why they do that, and try to last as long, as it's possible.

Nothing will give you better lesson. Good luck!

[_Seth_]

You could also try the famous "mrchris-move", if all your hope is out.
Here is ho you do that:

1: Full speed ahed (submerged)
2: SURFACE + BLOW BALLAST!
3:Get some suicidal crew members to man the deck gun, and fire at the DD's
4: Go out in a blaze of glory.

[oRGy]

Or you could try to "de-uber" the destroyers by messing with sensors and AI values, since they're completely unrealistic in early war in GWX. The devs there seem to have this idea that harder=more realistic+more fun. In many cases this is true, but not here.

In fact, I recall someone questioning a former U-boot commander on the internet - I think it was Erich Topp? - about the relative difficulty of computer simulations vs real life and his quote was something like "In real life it was much easier." Perhaps someone could find the exact quote. I believe it was to do with AOTD.

When I was doing IuB I set the sensors to realistic values, which due to AI limitations made the DD's too easy to evade, but as I don't have SH3 anymore I would advise others to change the values themselves.

So, there are instructions around here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103589

And background info on sensors here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103968

Ciao.

[melnibonian]

Bienvenido a SubSim

your english is better than my Spanish so no need to worry about that.

Now if the ships that chace you are PT boats (the small ones with the torpedoes) you have nothing to worry. They cannot hurt you unless you're on the surface. They don't have hydrophones as well so you're OK. Just keep your course and eventually you will be far away from them. Now if you are in the vicinity of DDs things get more tricky. First of all go deep, really deep (150-180m) and go on silent running. Try to move away from them. To do this use the hydrophones to see where the destroyers are and move to the oposite direction. It takes time but eventually you will manage to lose them. If they start throwing depth charges away from you it's a good sign, so keep increasing your distance. If they throw depth charges at you start zig-zaging and pray.

[Quillan]

He's in the Channel, so deep isn't an option. I expect it's 25 meters or less. Me, I have a rule: never go through the Channel. I go the long way around England.

[Jimbuna]

Run Silent...Run Deep.....if that aint possible always head away from the DD maintining as thin/narrow a profile as possible whilst using 'silent running' mode. If you get detected in shallow water your only option might be to surface and duke it out but I wouldn't hold out much hope against the DD.
Flower corvettes are a little different because their gun is at the front...let him pass over you then surface quickly and fire at his DC's using your deck gun.
PT boats can be more dangerous than you might think with their quick firing machine guns/oerlikons...they can 'mince' your gun and deck crew in no time...better to submerge because they don't have the ability to detect you then
If all else fails...bend over putting your head between your legs and kiss your sorry ar*e goodbye

All the very best kaleun gasparweb

[Mooncatt]

well i do too but if the grid is near lands end then i will risk the channel but i do 99% of the time go all the way around. the channel is full of mines and god knows what else

[Falcon666]

Quillan is right, stay away from the Channel!!!

[HunterICX]

Originally Posted by oRGy

Or you could try to "de-uber" the destroyers by messing with sensors and AI values, since they're completely unrealistic in early war in GWX. The devs there seem to have this idea that harder=more realistic+more fun. In many cases this is true, but not here.

In fact, I recall someone questioning a former U-boot commander on the internet - I think it was Erich Topp? - about the relative difficulty of computer simulations vs real life and his quote was something like "In real life it was much easier." Perhaps someone could find the exact quote. I believe it was to do with AOTD.

When I was doing IuB I set the sensors to realistic values, which due to AI limitations made the DD's too easy to evade, but as I don't have SH3 anymore I would advise others to change the values themselves.

So, there are instructions around here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103589

And background info on sensors here:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=103968

Ciao.

Right...

Actually, you bunch of people that are whining about the UBER destroyers and stuff...

I have done many patrols in Early war, I have challenged the Patrol Vessels, Escorts and DDs I have no problem with the sensors beeing too good. and they are NOT UBER! mostly people complain about them because its there own darn fault that they messed up something in the way they where doing it. Sound , Angle, Depth, Distance.

I can attack convoys easy..but YOU have to do it RIGHT.
I have many times been pinged when I attemp to enter the convoy...No matter, I have to waste a torpedo on him if I must. but otherwise I just Crashdive , and creep away.
and remember...the Wheater is a mayor factor against the AI sensors. the only way to attack without having to much problems is in heavy wheater.

so yet again : THE SENSORS IN GWX ARE NOT UBER!!!!!!!!
Stop blaming it, and IMPROVE UR TACTICS!


Reminder: this post is not aimed against the topic creater, but against the person I quoted and the rest of those UBER WHINERS

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by _Seth_

You could also try the famous "mrchris-move", if all your hope is out.
Here is ho you do that:

1: Full speed ahed (submerged)
2: SURFACE + BLOW BALLAST!
3:Get some suicidal crew members to man the deck gun, and fire at the DD's
4: Go out in a blaze of glory.

Damn it...you have found my secret to only getting to two patrols and having to start over

[oRGy]

so yet again : THE SENSORS IN GWX ARE NOT UBER!!!!!!!!
Stop blaming it, and IMPROVE UR TACTICS!

Reminder: this post is not aimed against the topic creater, but against the person I quoted (oRGy) and the rest of those UBER WHINERS

I do not consider myself a whiner, but I have no trouble in saying that you are as ignorant as you are rude.

I created the Improved U-Boat 1.02 mod, if you care to recall, and spent many hours researching and going over the AI sensors and adjusting them to historically correct values.

After doing this, some users complained that the DD AI was 'nerfed' in comparison to stock. This was due to limitations of the AI and foolish design decisions by the SH3 devs, so clearly historically correct values have to be changed to get a realistic outcome. I had no problem accepting the input of players in this case.

However, GWX goes too far in the other direction in my opinion.

Subs having to dive to 180m+ and go to silent running to have a chance to evade a DD in 1939 is ludicrous. First of all, not every boat in '39 even had ASDIC, but assuming they did, the early models were extemely ineffective and didn't scan below 100m, never mind the fact that all crews in the RN at this time were completely untrained for ASW warfare!

A players periscope being detected by an armed TUG boat, in 1940 at 2800 meters while they player was in a type II @ 2 knots is ludicrous. As a former naval watch officer posted:

I stood watch as a contact coordinator on 2 classes of submarines, I can assure you that at 28 hunderd meters the only way to spot a WWII attack scope that was raised for 6 seconds is to be looking exactly where it is when its raised.

The initial detection was by sonar, sorry that capability is highly questionable in my experience. I can assure that passively, that detection would be 97% impossible, especially with the surface duct working the way it would in a real ocean enviroment. I have seen modern passive sonar miss a surface ship that was 1000 yards away!

I can almost guarantee that that capability is far above and beyond what was capable in 1940, even under good conditions. Not saying a fluke detection isnt possible, hell I'll tell ya I heard and seen some strange stuff out there, but the norm is not that good.

Certainly, some of the complaints by people just involve laziness. My position is that the AI should match the historical model, not some persons idea of "hard" in order to separate "the men from the boys". Nor should it be too easy in order to pander to some players lack of care and desire for instant gratification. As another poster said:

Of the 9 U-boats sunk in 1939, two were sunk by mines and one by a British sub. The other six were destroyed by depth charges from 2 or 3 ASW vessels (never by just one alone.) Also in at least 2 cases, premature torpedo detonation or broaching the surface gave the U-boat's approximate position away.)

Of the 24 U-boats sunk in 1940, two were rammed by friendly or neutral ships, two were sunk by aircraft, two more by British subs, and 7 definitely and probably one more were lost to mines. Two were sunk by combinations of 4 destroyers and a Sunderland, and the remaining 8 by ASW vessels, mostly multiple ASW vessels.

If GWX results follow this pattern, then it is realistic and I have no complaints. If a player can engage in historical tactics of U-boat commanders and achieve the same results as them, then I have no complaints. If this is not the case, then GWX is unrealistic and accusing others of being "UBER WHINERS" is immature and unhelpful. Instead, new sensor values should be suggested.

Ciao

PS - I have no intention of posting further in this thread.