More sonar questions

nutworld · 12-29-06, 03:31 AM

I'm still working on my sonar skills, this time using Bill Nichols "VENGANCE" scenario, where my 688 has to locate, identify and kill a Kilo.

My question is this: Don't contacts in the NB display that look something like this ___^___ signify a contact at that designated bearing? (please forgive my "graphic")

When playing this scenario I hear the surface contacts that "seem" to be surface squall, and those lines appear solid on my waterfall display in the BB waterfall.

When I click on the designated bearing that I show above, my NB waterfall display shows no contact lines.

I'm not looking for cheats or things like that but I just don't understand why my NB display would show what "seems" to be a strong contact, showing nothing on the waterfall.

Thanks for your help.

Dr.Sid · 12-29-06, 04:54 AM

Just for sure, check your frequency scale settings. You can have frequence scale 50Hz while the visible line is 2000 Hz.

Anyway, noise signals are visible only on BB displays (which in fact is the spiky line on NB too). They have no distinct frequency. In DW, at least helos and shrimp are such contancts. With any sub or ship should give nice lines much sooner than you are able to see bump on spiky line.

nutworld · 12-29-06, 10:33 AM

Thanks Dr. Sid

I did in fact "scroll" thru all my frequency scale settings, in case sonar was picking up something on another frequency.

The "contact" stayed on the display but nothing appeared on the waterfall display at any frequency.

Dr.Sid · 12-29-06, 10:37 AM

When in doubt, use 'show truth' option. Both shrimp and low flying helos are very rare.

sonar732 · 12-29-06, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutworld

Thanks Dr. Sid

I did in fact "scroll" thru all my frequency scale settings, in case sonar was picking up something on another frequency.

The "contact" stayed on the display but nothing appeared on the waterfall display at any frequency.

I would also agree that you are seeing a biologic on the BB, which doesn't produce a NB line.

nutworld · 12-29-06, 12:25 PM

OK.

That answers a question. I love the scenario. I read the book that he based the mission on, and I'm loving playing it.

When I went up to PD, and took a look, the sea state is TERRIBLE, and of course there is precipitation, and that is what I thought I was seeing on my BB waterfall. I, of course, hear the biologic(s??) when in BB as well.

I've not gotten a sniff of the Kilo that is out there somewhere, and I'm 4 hours into the mission.

I don't want to "truth" because I want to develop my sonar skills, so that eventually I get to play MP missions, and not get KILLED immediatly.

My next question then is this:
using a "Yes" or "No" answer (so I don't lose all hope and quit) would someone with GOOD sonar skills have found the Kilo in 4 hours?

Or is the Kilo that silent, as it has been "made out to be" in many books, including the one that this mission is based upon?

Thanks for the help and suggestions guys. I know that it's probably frustrating when a NEWB like myself gets going asking all kinds of questions, but I really do want to learn.

ASWnut101 · 12-29-06, 02:34 PM

Yes. Me.:p

But yeah, the kilo is VERY silent. the silentist in the game, i think. I understand why you have trouble finding it....

p.s.: no, your asking questions is why alot of us are here. its not annoying at all....infact, keep asking them. It gives us something to do around here.

Dr.Sid · 12-29-06, 03:18 PM

Kilo is the most silent under 3 kts. At 5 kts it is same level with Seawolf and above that Seawolf is the best.

Kilo is detectable mostly by mistake of it's captain. With sealevel 3, you can hit it without noticing it. In such cases, check you HF sonar often

If you are in FFG, use active sonar (just time to time, few pings and the turn it off). If you are in sub, extend TA, be quiet, and be ready for that mistake.
In MP games Kilo suffers from this low speed and it also has small sensor range. Chances are big that it's captain will get bored and will go 10 kts time to time.
In 1 to 1 scenarios, with US sub, go active.

I played Kilo in MP several times with not much success. It's pretty hard not to make that mistake. In Kilo you have also weak torpedos, so it's hard to turn that stealthiness into victory.

kage · 12-31-06, 11:28 PM

If you are in FFG, use active sonar (just time to time, few pings and the turn it off).

If you are in a FFG, use the helo to saturate the area with DICASS buoys.

I played Kilo in MP several times with not much success. It's pretty hard not to make that mistake. In Kilo you have also weak torpedos, so it's hard to turn that stealthiness into victory.

In a MP deathmatch type scenario, you're fighting against the realism in DW too. The kilo isn't made for subhunting. It's not really usable for this with the exception of another sub stumbling upon it.

Bill Nichols · 12-31-06, 11:40 PM

My scenario Vengence was originally designed for Sub Command. The Kilo in DW may be quieter than the one in SC, thus making it harder to find. In any case, your only chance of finding it is with narrowband*... as you've noticed, the broadband display is cluttered with biologics (as described in the book).

*Active is another tactic to consider.

Sea Demon · 01-01-07, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

My scenario Vengence was originally designed for Sub Command.

My goodness, this scenario is labor intensive in sonar. It really taxed me with all the stuff I detected on sonar. Alot of fun I had with this mission. Great for the sonarman in all of us.

nutworld · 01-01-07, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Nichols

My scenario Vengence was originally designed for Sub Command. The Kilo in DW may be quieter than the one in SC, thus making it harder to find. In any case, your only chance of finding it is with narrowband*... as you've noticed, the broadband display is cluttered with biologics (as described in the book).

*Active is another tactic to consider.

Bill,
It's a great (if not frustrating, and I mean that in a NICE way) scenario. When I read about it, I wanted to play because the Kilo is hard to find, and I want to improve my abilities in Sonar. Thanks.

While Active is another tactic to consider, I want to find a way to beat this guy so he doesn't get a shot off at me. Active will, of course, tell Mr Kilo that there is a 688i out there, and he'd better watch his butt!

That is my "theory" on the active tactic..........am I right? I don't know. Is there a "right" or "wrong" ??

Nexus7 · 01-02-07, 07:20 PM

In some missions the Kilo is plainly impossible to find.

Had a situation where he was more or less 25nm away from me at the start and no hint of his approx position. Even active gave no reply.

In a MP game had the Kilo at around 15nm but no way to find him with TA. If you know he's around the only way is active, because he's able to fire at you from 2nm without being detected, and even with 3 knots he can do that, for example if the topography allows him to sprint...

12-29-06, 03:31 AM	#1
nutworld Engineer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Flint, Michigan, USA Posts: 200 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	More sonar questions I'm still working on my sonar skills, this time using Bill Nichols "VENGANCE" scenario, where my 688 has to locate, identify and kill a Kilo. My question is this: Don't contacts in the NB display that look something like this ___^___ signify a contact at that designated bearing? (please forgive my "graphic") When playing this scenario I hear the surface contacts that "seem" to be surface squall, and those lines appear solid on my waterfall display in the BB waterfall. When I click on the designated bearing that I show above, my NB waterfall display shows no contact lines. I'm not looking for cheats or things like that but I just don't understand why my NB display would show what "seems" to be a strong contact, showing nothing on the waterfall. Thanks for your help.

12-29-06, 02:34 PM	#7
ASWnut101 Admiral Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: USA Posts: 2,021 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Yes. Me.:p But yeah, the kilo is VERY silent. the silentist in the game, i think. I understand why you have trouble finding it.... p.s.: no, your asking questions is why alot of us are here. its not annoying at all....infact, keep asking them. It gives us something to do around here. __________________

12-31-06, 11:28 PM	#9
kage Helmsman Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 104 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	If you are in FFG, use active sonar (just time to time, few pings and the turn it off). If you are in a FFG, use the helo to saturate the area with DICASS buoys. I played Kilo in MP several times with not much success. It's pretty hard not to make that mistake. In Kilo you have also weak torpedos, so it's hard to turn that stealthiness into victory. In a MP deathmatch type scenario, you're fighting against the realism in DW too. The kilo isn't made for subhunting. It's not really usable for this with the exception of another sub stumbling upon it. __________________ http://www.xfire.com/clans/dwobjective/ for those who like playing objectives-based missions. (As opposed to deathmatches)

12-31-06, 11:40 PM	#10
Bill Nichols Master of Defense Join Date: Mar 2000 Posts: 1,502 Downloads: 125 Uploads: 0	My scenario Vengence was originally designed for Sub Command. The Kilo in DW may be quieter than the one in SC, thus making it harder to find. In any case, your only chance of finding it is with narrowband... as you've noticed, the broadband display is cluttered with biologics (as described in the book). Active is another tactic to consider. __________________ My Dangerous Waters website:

01-02-07, 07:20 PM	#13
Nexus7 Commander Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Switzerland Posts: 469 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	In some missions the Kilo is plainly impossible to find. Had a situation where he was more or less 25nm away from me at the start and no hint of his approx position. Even active gave no reply. In a MP game had the Kilo at around 15nm but no way to find him with TA. If you know he's around the only way is active, because he's able to fire at you from 2nm without being detected, and even with 3 knots he can do that, for example if the topography allows him to sprint... __________________ If you are going through hell... keep going (Winston Churchill)

12-29-06, 04:54 AM	#2
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Just for sure, check your frequency scale settings. You can have frequence scale 50Hz while the visible line is 2000 Hz. Anyway, noise signals are visible only on BB displays (which in fact is the spiky line on NB too). They have no distinct frequency. In DW, at least helos and shrimp are such contancts. With any sub or ship should give nice lines much sooner than you are able to see bump on spiky line.

12-29-06, 10:33 AM	#3
nutworld Engineer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Flint, Michigan, USA Posts: 200 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	Thanks Dr. Sid I did in fact "scroll" thru all my frequency scale settings, in case sonar was picking up something on another frequency. The "contact" stayed on the display but nothing appeared on the waterfall display at any frequency.

12-29-06, 10:37 AM	#4
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	When in doubt, use 'show truth' option. Both shrimp and low flying helos are very rare.

12-29-06, 12:25 PM	#6
nutworld Engineer Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Flint, Michigan, USA Posts: 200 Downloads: 92 Uploads: 0	OK. That answers a question. I love the scenario. I read the book that he based the mission on, and I'm loving playing it. When I went up to PD, and took a look, the sea state is TERRIBLE, and of course there is precipitation, and that is what I thought I was seeing on my BB waterfall. I, of course, hear the biologic(s??) when in BB as well. I've not gotten a sniff of the Kilo that is out there somewhere, and I'm 4 hours into the mission. I don't want to "truth" because I want to develop my sonar skills, so that eventually I get to play MP missions, and not get KILLED immediatly. My next question then is this: using a "Yes" or "No" answer (so I don't lose all hope and quit) would someone with GOOD sonar skills have found the Kilo in 4 hours? Or is the Kilo that silent, as it has been "made out to be" in many books, including the one that this mission is based upon? Thanks for the help and suggestions guys. I know that it's probably frustrating when a NEWB like myself gets going asking all kinds of questions, but I really do want to learn.

12-29-06, 03:18 PM	#8
Dr.Sid The Old Man Join Date: May 2005 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 1,458 Downloads: 6 Uploads: 0	Kilo is the most silent under 3 kts. At 5 kts it is same level with Seawolf and above that Seawolf is the best. Kilo is detectable mostly by mistake of it's captain. With sealevel 3, you can hit it without noticing it. In such cases, check you HF sonar often If you are in FFG, use active sonar (just time to time, few pings and the turn it off). If you are in sub, extend TA, be quiet, and be ready for that mistake. In MP games Kilo suffers from this low speed and it also has small sensor range. Chances are big that it's captain will get bored and will go 10 kts time to time. In 1 to 1 scenarios, with US sub, go active. I played Kilo in MP several times with not much success. It's pretty hard not to make that mistake. In Kilo you have also weak torpedos, so it's hard to turn that stealthiness into victory.