sinking ships with deck guns

Jmack · 12-09-06, 08:27 PM

i now it has been debated before , but after looking at a few newsreels from kriegsmarine ... and spending all amunition including the flares against one of those
smaller merchants and not being able to sunk it i got a bit disapointed. also in some reading i did it is several times mentioned " 2 or 3 hits under the water line " is enough.

i usually use a torpedo and then surface in safe distance and try to finish them with the deck gun ... but almost never works

im using GW1.1a and yes i shoot at the waterline

now i dont want a super gun but a few more power on those shots would be nice
anyone knows if GWX will have the same " model "

Venatore · 12-09-06, 08:43 PM

All your wishes will be answered in the up-comming GWX expansion.

bigboywooly · 12-09-06, 08:43 PM

No its been said many a time in the various GW and GWX threads - GWX has a totally new damage model

eisenfaust24 · 12-09-06, 08:56 PM

me too ...

Using a deck gun to sink the ship especially very big tanker or cargo ship is always a hard thing. Im still dont know how to edit the amount of damage of HE shells and Piercing shell with timetraveler software. What type of ammo is good to fire the ship with deck gun? HE or Piercing ?

Can you help me what files to edit the damage of deck gun ammo ? im still confuse using timetraveler sofware.

d@rk51d3 · 12-09-06, 11:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eisenfaust24

Using a deck gun to sink the ship especially very big tanker or cargo ship is always a hard thing.

Tankers can be a whole different story in real life. I read somwhere (can't remember where though) that pounding shells into a tanker can sometimes have no effect. Sure, the oil comes out, and water goes in, but the characteristics of a tanker filled with oil, or water are very similar.

Corrupt_File · 12-10-06, 01:57 AM

Oil is less dense than water, it would help the ship float if anything.

rascal101 · 12-10-06, 02:15 AM

To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline.

I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it.

Will the new GWX do anything for me?

Venatore · 12-10-06, 03:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascal101

To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline.

I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it.

Will the new GWX do anything for me?

This is a choice that only you can make. I like the GW mod and I was lucky enough to be asked to Beta Test the GWX up-comming mod. The GWX fullfils my needs but this isent taking anything away from the NYGM, it's like us Aussies say your either a Ford man, or your a Holden man.

GO THE HOLDENS !

The Munster · 12-10-06, 01:12 PM

According to my 'sources' the level of difficulty to sink a ship at the time also depended on the structure and 'architecture' of the ship i.e. a rivetted ship took longer in a lot of cases because plates have more flexibility and can pivot across the rivets whereas a welded ship is more rigid and less 'give and take' from any kind of impact.

Bruno Lotse · 12-10-06, 02:17 PM

The following is from U-Boat Commander's Handbook. 1942 New Edition 1943
English translation Thomas Publications ISBN-0-939631-21-0
p.82
Section V. The Submarine as a Gunnery Vessel.

Quote:

275 c) Procedure:
1.) Gun commander and crew take up action stations in good time on the conning tower and the upper deck, in order to get used to the darkness. Precise arrangements are to be made regarding method of covering the target. 10.5 cm are to be fired at the bridge and superstructures, beginning with 10 rounds of incediary shells, in order to get a good marking point in the resulting fire. 3.7 cm machine gun m34 to be fired at the stern (gun) .2 cm (powerful dazzling effect) should only be fired on orders of the commander, when there is a jam (stoppage) in the 3.7 cm gun.

Quote:

3.) The second shot must hit the mark. Bridge and superstructures are big targets, and soon burn. (It is particularly important that the ship should burn, as the gun commanders are dazzled by the flames, and marking is rendered very difficult). According to the circumstances, concentrate the gunfire on one part of the ship. At close range, machine guns m34 are very effective in suppressing enemy resistance.

...In order to sink the ship quicker the fire should be directed only at the bows or the stern. On the even keel, ships only sink slowly.

Well, beat me, I do not see any 'under the water line' gunnery instructions. German High Command of the Navy (U.Kdt.Hdb.) (the author of the U-Boat Commander Handbook) instructed captains to hit the target superstructure in order to set the ship ablaze and eliminate resistance, and then hit the hull - to make ship sink faster. Perhaps U.Kdt.Hdb. was veeeeery stupid in its tactics. Well, I do not think so.

And do we have any data that WWII U-Boat would sink a tanker using a single 8.8/10.5 cm gun? It might just never happened.
Recall 'Das Boot'? Recall burning tanker? What the Captain did? Gunned the tanker down to make her shink or blasted her with a torpedo? Correct, that was a torpedo.

VonHelsching · 12-10-06, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascal101

To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline.

I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it.

Will the new GWX do anything for me?

Yes. The GWX Damage model plays on a fine balance between sinking by flooding and structural integrity loss. Also, deck gun allows for real damage both above and under the waterline.
The Beta Testers seemed to like it.

Von

fredbass · 12-10-06, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascal101

To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline.

I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it.

Will the new GWX do anything for me?

Yes. The GWX Damage model plays on a fine balance between sinking by flooding and structural integrity loss. Also, deck gun allows for real damage bot above and under the waterline.
The Beta Testers seemed to like it.

Von

Yea, I definitely like the improvement, but you'd better be very very cautious with who you're shooting at.

That's all I'm gonna say for now.

Jmack · 12-10-06, 08:33 PM

ok ... please read this , i can see a few things i would like to have in sh3

In a gunnery duel, the best position for the U-boat is to be at the stern of the victim, at a distance not less than 4,000 meters. An advantage is gained from the rear because the port side guns of the victim cannot be used in retaliation and only the stern guns can be fired. Point the boat towards the target. This presents a smaller target to the enemy, and keeping the bow pointed minimizes the effects of roll and pitch which would undermine accuracy.
Lay alternate fire with the U-boat’s other weapons in order suppress return fire. There is a four second interval between rounds, and while the deck gun is reloaded, open fire with a short burst of anti-aircraft rounds. If within range, small arms fire from the MG34 is very effective at suppressing return fire. Suppressive fire from the 20mm and even the 37mm anti-aircraft cannon will not sink the ship, but is used only to prevent the crews from firing back.
An attack could be aimed at the target’s bridge, waterline or weapon systems. Attacking the bridge will hinder the victim’s steering ability, while attacking at the hull’s waterline would quickly sink the ship. Attacks at the bows or stern will sink the ship faster compared to attacks on an even keel. Attacking the weapon’s systems will hinder the victim’s ability to fire back, but it takes just one unlucky shell to penetrate the U-boat’s hull which will make diving impossible. Armor piercing shells are better suited to hull attacks, while high explosive could be used against other targets.
The standard procedure for opening fire is to aim at the bridge and superstructures with ten rounds of incendiary shells, in order to provide a good marking point from the resulting fire, especially during night or low visibility conditions. The 37mm anti-aircraft cannon and MG34 is fired to suppress enemy resistance. The 20mm anti-aircraft cannon is kept in readiness, and fired only on orders from the commander. Typically, it will be used when there is a jam (stoppage) in the 37mm gun or when enemy resistance is too strong.
While it is better and safer to conduct a submerged torpedo attack, sometimes a U-boat may find itself out of position for a torpedo attack. If a merchant sails at 8 knots and above, and since the maximum underwater speed of a Type VII is also 8 knots, a U-boat had to surface to run its powerful diesel engines in order to catch up with its prey. Without the element of surprise, the deck gun makes a viable alternative.
Throughout the entire engagement, the watch crew are prohibited from witnessing the attack sequence. Four watch crews are on deck, with each covering a 90 degrees arc and they had to strictly scan their respective zones for any activity. They are not allowed to watch the attack to prevent the U-boat from being surprised by a lurking enemy.

the source of this is http://www.uboataces.com/tactics-deckgun.shtml

Jimbuna · 12-11-06, 06:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascal101

To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline.

I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it.

Will the new GWX do anything for me?

Yes. The GWX Damage model plays on a fine balance between sinking by flooding and structural integrity loss. Also, deck gun allows for real damage both above and under the waterline.
The Beta Testers seemed to like it.

Von

We most certainly did

The moral is: WAIT FOR GWX

melnibonian · 12-11-06, 06:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VonHelsching

Quote:

Originally Posted by rascal101

To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline.

I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it.

Will the new GWX do anything for me?

Yes. The GWX Damage model plays on a fine balance between sinking by flooding and structural integrity loss. Also, deck gun allows for real damage both above and under the waterline.
The Beta Testers seemed to like it.

Von

listen t the man he knows what he's talking about

The GWX Damage Model is very good. In my opinion it's brilliant but since I'm a GWX Beta Tester people might think I'm a bit biased. All I have to say is to wait and see, it Rocks

12-09-06, 08:27 PM	#1
Jmack Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 669 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	sinking ships with deck guns i now it has been debated before , but after looking at a few newsreels from kriegsmarine ... and spending all amunition including the flares against one of those smaller merchants and not being able to sunk it i got a bit disapointed. also in some reading i did it is several times mentioned " 2 or 3 hits under the water line " is enough. i usually use a torpedo and then surface in safe distance and try to finish them with the deck gun ... but almost never works im using GW1.1a and yes i shoot at the waterline now i dont want a super gun but a few more power on those shots would be nice anyone knows if GWX will have the same " model " __________________ "victim's ? ... arent we all ? "

12-09-06, 08:43 PM	#3
bigboywooly Rear Admiral Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Swindon, England Posts: 10,151 Downloads: 35 Uploads: 0	No its been said many a time in the various GW and GWX threads - GWX has a totally new damage model __________________ My mediafire page http://www.mediafire.com/?11eoq19bq9r41

12-10-06, 02:15 AM	#7
rascal101 Grey Wolf Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 769 Downloads: 200 Uploads: 0	Question for the GWX guys To date I've been a fan of the NYGM mod series. The reason is simple, its the only mod that seems to adequately simulate torpedo or shell damage below the waterline. I love chasing a damaged ship which slowly fills with water and lists before getting away from me or going down. I love the randomness of it. Will the new GWX do anything for me?

12-10-06, 01:12 PM	#9
The Munster Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Deepest Dumbria Posts: 1,243 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	According to my 'sources' the level of difficulty to sink a ship at the time also depended on the structure and 'architecture' of the ship i.e. a rivetted ship took longer in a lot of cases because plates have more flexibility and can pivot across the rivets whereas a welded ship is more rigid and less 'give and take' from any kind of impact. __________________ *GWX Team Member; Retired* GWX Home Page

12-10-06, 08:33 PM	#13
Jmack Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Oct 2005 Posts: 669 Downloads: 23 Uploads: 0	ok ... please read this , i can see a few things i would like to have in sh3 In a gunnery duel, the best position for the U-boat is to be at the stern of the victim, at a distance not less than 4,000 meters. An advantage is gained from the rear because the port side guns of the victim cannot be used in retaliation and only the stern guns can be fired. Point the boat towards the target. This presents a smaller target to the enemy, and keeping the bow pointed minimizes the effects of roll and pitch which would undermine accuracy. Lay alternate fire with the U-boat’s other weapons in order suppress return fire. There is a four second interval between rounds, and while the deck gun is reloaded, open fire with a short burst of anti-aircraft rounds. If within range, small arms fire from the MG34 is very effective at suppressing return fire. Suppressive fire from the 20mm and even the 37mm anti-aircraft cannon will not sink the ship, but is used only to prevent the crews from firing back. An attack could be aimed at the target’s bridge, waterline or weapon systems. Attacking the bridge will hinder the victim’s steering ability, while attacking at the hull’s waterline would quickly sink the ship. Attacks at the bows or stern will sink the ship faster compared to attacks on an even keel. Attacking the weapon’s systems will hinder the victim’s ability to fire back, but it takes just one unlucky shell to penetrate the U-boat’s hull which will make diving impossible. Armor piercing shells are better suited to hull attacks, while high explosive could be used against other targets. The standard procedure for opening fire is to aim at the bridge and superstructures with ten rounds of incendiary shells, in order to provide a good marking point from the resulting fire, especially during night or low visibility conditions. The 37mm anti-aircraft cannon and MG34 is fired to suppress enemy resistance. The 20mm anti-aircraft cannon is kept in readiness, and fired only on orders from the commander. Typically, it will be used when there is a jam (stoppage) in the 37mm gun or when enemy resistance is too strong. While it is better and safer to conduct a submerged torpedo attack, sometimes a U-boat may find itself out of position for a torpedo attack. If a merchant sails at 8 knots and above, and since the maximum underwater speed of a Type VII is also 8 knots, a U-boat had to surface to run its powerful diesel engines in order to catch up with its prey. Without the element of surprise, the deck gun makes a viable alternative. Throughout the entire engagement, the watch crew are prohibited from witnessing the attack sequence. Four watch crews are on deck, with each covering a 90 degrees arc and they had to strictly scan their respective zones for any activity. They are not allowed to watch the attack to prevent the U-boat from being surprised by a lurking enemy. the source of this is http://www.uboataces.com/tactics-deckgun.shtml __________________ "victim's ? ... arent we all ? "

12-09-06, 08:43 PM	#2
Venatore Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Australia:- Sydney Posts: 2,049 Downloads: 68 Uploads: 0	All your wishes will be answered in the up-comming GWX expansion.

12-09-06, 08:56 PM	#4
eisenfaust24 Swabbie Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Indonesia Posts: 9 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	me too ... Using a deck gun to sink the ship especially very big tanker or cargo ship is always a hard thing. Im still dont know how to edit the amount of damage of HE shells and Piercing shell with timetraveler software. What type of ammo is good to fire the ship with deck gun? HE or Piercing ? Can you help me what files to edit the damage of deck gun ammo ? im still confuse using timetraveler sofware.

12-10-06, 01:57 AM	#6
Corrupt_File Sparky Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Canada's Western Naval Fleet Posts: 157 Downloads: 17 Uploads: 0	Oil is less dense than water, it would help the ship float if anything.