RA - Can a Sierra II defeat a 688?

[Stewy1]

G'day guys,

Honest question about tactics - I set up a quick mission scenario, where me in a Sierra II has to try and kill a lurking Flt 1 688, in the deep water off Kamchatka.

I had real trouble getting close enough to without getting counter-detected (and getting a TIW) - I ended up getting to 5.5 NM (10, 186m) on his beam, at 1 knot, without being heard. I think if I reeled in the TA at that range, he'd hear me.

Naturally, as soon as I fire, all hell breaks looks and he fires back with Adcaps. The Sierra's speed (and the right course and decoy pattern) can usually dodge them, but both my torps (Test-71M and USET-80) seem to be easily avoided by him at that range.

I even tried the 'Ramius' tactic and rushed him at flank to close the range before firing, but that didn't seem to work.

I've only tried this a couple of times, and must confess I've only had time for one round of 'fire and evade' (i.e., not going quiet after beating his torp and getting back into an attacking position for Round 2) - so more training is needed - but do you have any tactics that might help level the playing field in this scenario?

Getting into into position for an 'up the butt' shot is very challenging, given the slow speed and distance needed to not be heard. I don't even know if that would make a difference?

Please don't reply with, "That's so easy, you're such a noob!" - Honest question about tactics here. Am running unmodded 1.50.3 at the moment (I have 1.51 - just haven't had time to install it)

Cheers guys,
Stew

[Kapitan]

I certainly can see potential for a couple of options but I would need more detail.

1) is it a generic quick mission or one you designed ?

2) Do you know if he has his TA deployed?

3) What's the layer depth and are you on the same layer or above or below?

4) are you trying to approach from the stern abeam or bow?

688s from flt I to III have a small blind spot abeam, their 090 and 270 areas (modeled in game) are not covered by the spherical array or towed array, it gives some window there.

Personally I would be trying to approach almost head on or to one side, below the layer he is on or above depending on depth, and slow 3 knots, if possible ride the layer.

Evasion is a different matter if you get a TIW you need to drop decoys and turn 90 degrees it should take you out of the cone, also try and put the layer between you and the weapon.
You will do these turns several times to shake a torpedo, the problem with running at speed is you wash your own sensors out effectively loosing track of the weapon and the OPFOR submarine (which is what he wants), sprint and drift but also maybe fire a torpedo or two down the bearing line.

He will then have to evade as well making a lot of noise then you can reposition yourself and wait and see where he goes.

[Stewy1]

Thanks Kapitan for those helpful points. Just some answers:

1. Just a quick scenario I whipped up - placed a 688 in some water, placed my Sierra II 10ish miles away

2. No - I thought all AI subs had their TAs deployed?

3. I was on the same layer as he was - I didn't think firing under the layer would make a big difference from that range - is that wrong?

4. Just by chance (he was running random in a box) I came at from the bow. I drew a 5.5 NM circle around him and tried the 'follow' the edge of it around at 1-2 kts until I was on his beam - I figured if I didn't then, the range would start to increase (he was going 5 kts)

Thanks for those evasion tips - I need to do more sprinting and drifting!

I also need to study the weapons manual more - I usually just fire on 'default settings' Maybe giving him a passive torp would make him think a bit more??

Stew

[John Pancoast]

Passive torpedo is a good idea, but be sure to set the speed to 40 knots. 55 and it won't work.
Another old trick from 688i that works is to make sure your torpedo depth is just under the surface and just above the floor, so the torpedo can search a larger area.
If you're in very deep water to the floor, just set it real deep somewhere.
Last but not least, don't forget about snapshots. Especially against a better sub, they can come in handy.
And drop the movie tactics.

[Kapitan]

Originally Posted by Stewy1

Thanks Kapitan for those helpful points. Just some answers:

1. Just a quick scenario I whipped up - placed a 688 in some water, placed my Sierra II 10ish miles away

2. No - I thought all AI subs had their TAs deployed?

3. I was on the same layer as he was - I didn't think firing under the layer would make a big difference from that range - is that wrong?

4. Just by chance (he was running random in a box) I came at from the bow. I drew a 5.5 NM circle around him and tried the 'follow' the edge of it around at 1-2 kts until I was on his beam - I figured if I didn't then, the range would start to increase (he was going 5 kts)

Thanks for those evasion tips - I need to do more sprinting and drifting!

I also need to study the weapons manual more - I usually just fire on 'default settings' Maybe giving him a passive torp would make him think a bit more??

Stew

Thanks for the info so what I will do when I get home either tomorrow or Friday is run a similar mission using the Sierra and run up against a 688 and see where I get to on that (mainly now you have spiked my curiosity)

Do you know what type of bottom your using is it mud rock sand? are you using convergence zone or any other layer type?

As for TA off the top of my head here I do believe you have to check the box in mission editor for them to deploy it if not they don't do it.
Also if your going into a knife fight sometimes having a towed array can be a hinderance rather than a help as its easily lost during high speed and turns plus it also can confuse your collated data giving you map tracks that are inaccurate.

For a TA to be effective it basically needs to be straight, one way you detect another target is by finding the ghost, basically your TA will show the real target and a mirrored ghost, a turn of 45 degrees will show you which is which just watch the track on the nav map the one that doesn't change is the real target.
This takes times too a turn to 45 degree at 5 knots and having to wait for the TA to go straight can take 5-10 mins in some cases depending on what your doing.

One thing Dangerous Waters actually does well is model the different types of environments for submarines, it does well with modeling convergence zones a bottom limited and layers, so yes absolutely use those layers they can make a difference.
Being below or above him in a separate layer often is the difference between finding him quickly or at all, something you get to learn on the FFG rather quickly in blue water ops.

The layer isn't magical its not a invisibility cloak but it can delay the detection long enough for you to get close and shoot, but be advised just as he will have a harder time trying to detect you the reverse is also true.

In your point 4 there I can see what you did and I fully understand where you were going with it.
Ideally you need to be behind the boat but as I mentioned earlier the 688 seems to have a sonar blind spot on its beam at 090 and 270.

Having a submarine beam on is oddly the second best position for you to detect him, but guess what if your beam on to him its also his second best position to detect you.

Just like weapon arcs your sonars have arcs as well, with a sierra the bow sonar is I'm assuming (never really played a sierra) like the akula it will cover at 120 degree arc forward roughly.
By following him around the circle you have drawn you have done 2 things.
1. Turned beam on the second best position for him to detect you
2. you have put him into your farthest region of sonar, he can easily escape if your not paying attention to the screen when he turns, theoretically you could also miss a critical TIW warning (unlikely with DW).

The merry dance is very complex it is also a very narrow and tight window of operation and believe me you will sit there for hours trying to second, third and fourth guess the AI (its even harder when your playing a human)

Sprint and drift in evasion should be something like this:

Imagine your sub is on course 000 @5 knots 100m layer is 200m ocean depth 1000+m

Enemy submarine is at the same depth heading 270 at 5 knots 10nm from you

0000 TIW @ 090 (now you can fire right down line of bearing if your confident in your track and the torpedo is for you this should cause your enemy to run) if you don't snapshot then look below this will be if you want to put yourself in a more favorable position or don't want to expose yourself too much. times are rough guides not entirely accurate

0001 Start working on a conformation that the TIW is heading for your boat
0003 For this Ex it is so now you drop CMs at your depth turn to 315 increase 15 knots and dive 225m

Explanation: Most if not all torpedoes have a conical seeker looking out roughly 45 degrees from its center which means in a straight pattern that torpedo will be seeking a target in the range of 253 to 292.
By being at 315 your keeping out of the seekers head and by sprinting your putting distance between you and the enemy boat.
Diving below the layer will also help confuse the seeker as its going to be initially looking for you on the layer it was fired.

0008 slow to 5 knots re establish the torpedo track find out what its doing, don't spend too long doing this

0010 Drop second set of CMs speed 15 knots turn 045 stay on same depth

0013 slow to 5 knots re acquire torpedo track again confirm its position

Explanation: Your re confirming the torpedo to see if A its gone active and B if its changed its pattern to a snake style search, the reason for the turn to 045 is that the torpedo will snake roughly 45 degrees, by being at 045 you should be just out side its cone.

0016 you should have escaped this torpedo so now you need to focus on the platform that fired it, being below the layer will help slightly but your detection ability may not be great.
With all the CMs and torpedo out there the enemy will be trying to look for you through a search light the reality is you have moved some distance and now your in clearer water.

At this point you can counter fire with some ease.

As for firing on default settings this is a common thing most human players do and you really shouldn't, the AI fires on default settings most of the time i found which is why you should be able to escape easily

As pointed out by John Pancoast

Passive torpedo is a good idea, but be sure to set the speed to 40 knots. 55 and it won't work.
Another old trick from 688i that works is to make sure your torpedo depth is just under the surface and just above the floor, so the torpedo can search a larger area.
If you're in very deep water to the floor, just set it real deep somewhere.
Last but not least, don't forget about snapshots. Especially against a better sub, they can come in handy

I've seen first hand this method employed while on HMS Talent during an exercise.
Not 100% fool proof but for game purposes it works but not all the time depends on how the AI / Human responds

I would also defiantly go into the DWX weapons manuals found in the game files, I would also suggest reading the seawolves blue and red books which you can download from subsim.

Because I am a bit of an anorak I have mine all printed out in a file and sub divided

[John Pancoast]

Stewy1, another minor tip involving snapshots. If you've had to go defensive against another sub, firing off a snapshot before doing so is generally a good idea. Also, always enable a snapshot right away; don't wait for it to reach it's rte distance. Always have a torpedo set up for a snapshot beforehand. You don't want to waste evasion time while defensive setting it up.
It gives the other guy something to deal with while you're trying to defeat his torpedo.
Otherwise, he can just continue to drive in for the kill, unconcerned. You're not necessarily trying for a kill, you just want to keep the other guy busy too.
It's an old flight sim (maybe real life too, don't know) tactic in a bvr fight against a better combat jet and it can work with subs too, with the added benefit that acoustic torpedoes tend to be more dangerous/harder to shake than any jet missle for various reasons.
Also, Kapitan has some great advice. To add, when defensive you're also trying to have the torpedo use up it's energy. You have an unlimited supply of it, the torpedo doesn't.
That is another (though minor) reason why you do the maneuvers he listed.

[Stewy1]

Thank you VERY much, Kapitan and John, for your very detailed answers. I really appreciate it.

I'm going to put your advice into a document and print it - it's very helpful.

Just for your interest, I uploaded the quick mission I made:

https://www.subsim.com/radioroom/dow...o=file&id=6071

(This is now the correct link)



See if you can send that LA to the briny deep!
Thanks for ALL your help,
Stew