Hate preacher turned back from evacuation

[Skybird]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/syria/stor...825779,00.html

Poor radical boy. Now that the seed of his preachings opens up and triggers consequences - he wants to be rescued by those against whom he has talked so bitterly. If I understood it correctly, when he was rejected to board a British ship to escape Lebanon, he threatened that if he is not allowed onboard that British evacuation ship, he would call his family to Lebanon and if the authorities in Britain really could accept responsebility for his little, cute heartwarming kids to face the risks and dangers. Arab logic?

Psssst, here is a well-meant advise, from Skybird to a poor radical Muhammedan cleric feeling lonely inside his paradise - simply do not call your children to Lebanon, and we all are fine: you, we, and them.

[Oberon]

Heh, yeah I saw this on the ITV news last night, talk about ironic. We should do ourselves a favour and give the Israelis the GPS co-ordinates of where he's staying.

[jumpy]

hahahahahahahaha
I suspect some well meaning doo-gooder will sound off about how we should take the moral high ground and allow this twat back to the UK regardless of his attitude and radical voice as it's the 'human' thing to do, blah blah blair blair blah.

**** the moral high ground and **** Omar Bakri.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

hahahahahahahaha
I suspect some well meaning doo-gooder will sound off about how we should take the moral high ground and allow this twat back to the UK regardless of his attitude and radical voice as it's the 'human' thing to do,

so, in other words, we should take the moral low ground... right...
we should be just like the animals that we attest to be better than...

just a question... a question that most civilized human beings already know the answer to...

we over in the US had a guy, way back when, who said something about 'not agreeing with what you say, but defending to the last, your right to say it'...

i wonder how he would look at this...

now i'm not putting the US up as the professors of the moral high ground or anything like that... our history is self evident...

i'm just a lil taken back by your well meaning do gooder statement... especially since you are thousands of miles away from any of the happenings... so easy for you to sluff off the lives of people, regardless of how dispicable they may appear... as being worthless...

when your time for judgement comes... lets hope that whatever god you happen to believe in... whatever do gooder that go out of his or her way to pull your behind out of the fire... lets hope that they are a bit more tolerant than you would appear to be...

--Mike

[jumpy]

Mr Bakri was born in Syria and is believed to hold joint Syrian and Lebanese citizenship. He was granted political asylum in the UK in the 1980s because of his involvement with Islamist groups opposed to the secular government of Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad, the father of Syria's current president.
Mr Bakri had praised the September 11 attackers and called for Britain to become an Islamist state, and is regarded as the spiritual leader of Al-Ghurabaa, the organisation responsible for February's Danish embassy protests against cartoons of Mohammed.
He voluntarily left Britain last August days after the Home Office announced it was looking at using treason charges to prosecute him over inflammatory comments made by his Islamist group al-Muhajiroun.

See bold text: that is why I couldn't care less about him. He was offered the hospitality of the United Kingdom and imo took full advantage of our tollerance and secularism and other freedoms upheld by brittish law to advocate hate and condone murder. So you think we (or the US for that matter) should welcome him back with open arms and a bouquet of flowers?
Perhaps you're mistaking my reference to the moral high ground as a view I would impose upon everyone, regardless of their intent or belief or background?
Why should the UK accept the return of a snake such as Omar Bakri?
Besides, he clearly has joint Syrian and Lebanese citizenship so why could he not be evacuated to Syria instead? Oh yes, that's right, he caused a stirr and had to leave his homeland because he opposed the secular governement there. If you make yourself unwelcome in your own country and then in another which gave you a place to live and 'protection' under law...

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

we over in the US had a guy, way back when, who said something about 'not agreeing with what you say, but defending to the last, your right to say it'...

A question for you:
As a foreigner in receipt of your governements hospitality, if I were to stand on a soapbox in the middle of new york saying how wonderful I thought the actions of the September 11th perpetrators were and how I thought the USA should be forcibly made into an Islamic state, how long do you think it would take for me to be deported "back to whatever 'orrible little country you came from, squier." irrespective of the inconvenience to myself or whether my life might be in danger upon my return there?

Am I wrong thinking that it is a general understanding in the US that one should earn their place in society before one can enjoy its benefits and support as is exampled by some of the comments round here concerning the unemployed in your country? I'm not having a dig there, but I get the impression that you only 'get out what you put in', as it were.
I don't dissmiss the need for morality with integrity and honour and to uphold decency and general goodness towards those in need, but can you honestly say this man deserves the right to claim the benefit of such aid from those he would quite happily denounce and publically advocate the overthrow of?
He has done nothing whatsoever to earn that right by his actions to date. His current difficulty is entirely of his own design.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

So you think we (or the US for that matter) should welcome him back with open arms and a bouquet of flowers?

hahahaha... your imagination runs off with you... show me where i ever said or even implied that...

If I were to stand on a soapbox in the middle of new york saying how wonderful I thought the actions of the September 11th perpetrators were and how I thought the USA should be forcibly made into an Islamic state

as long as you had a permit, i'd simply ignore you... but i wouldn't take away your right to say it... this is at the heart of a democracy we have here... you don't seem to understand that at all...

Am I wrong thinking that it is a general understanding in the US that one should earn their place in society before one can enjoy its benefits and support

yes... you are verrrrrry verrrrry wrong on this point...

He has done nothing whatsoever to earn that right by his actions to date.

what have you done... what have you done that would make you more rescueable...

i've seen wounded enemy soldiers, people who fought against and may have killed our own troops, tended to by US Army medical personel... explain dat with your short sighted and narrow viewpoint of civilized acceptance...

--Mike

Ahhh another person prosecuted for not believing what everyone else believes.....

[jumpy]

your imagination runs off with you... show me where i ever said or even implied that...

What are you suggesting be done with him then? Allowing him back to the UK amounts to the same thing.

yes... you are verrrrrry verrrrry wrong on this point...

Well, I did ask; nothing verrry verrry about it....

what have you done... what have you done that would make you more rescueable...

Nothing like that guy for sure.

i've seen wounded enemy soldiers, people who fought against and may have killed our own troops, tended to by US Army medical personel... explain dat with your short sighted and narrow viewpoint of civilized acceptance...

Ah, since when did the Hippocratic Oath have anything to do with international politics?

Horses for courses.
I for one am sick and tired of Omar Bakri and his sort. Good riddance, I say.

[CB..]

i think the thing is that every one has the right to believe anything they want---or feel is correct according to their culture---but it's when said right is assumed to include the assignation that this right only applys to you...as is allmost inevitable with many religious beliefs---in fact it is nigh on compulsory is it not?

so you let him on the boat and half way home he blows the thing up shouting "death to the infidels"--
no one's rights are best served by this---:hmm:

only compromise i can think of here that would be tolerable--would be to arrest him --put him in the boats brig under armed gaurd and place him in jail pending investigation under terrorism legislation upon arriving on british soveriegn soil..

[Skybird]

Unbelievable that even this story cannot be agreed on by all, and laughed about. I surely did not expect this with this post this time, serious.

Protecting somebody else's right to have his different opinion (no matter if he can found it with solid facts or not - but it surely makes a qualitative difference) is one thing.

Protecting someone to overcome and destroy myself and turning my own tolerance against me is something totally different, and potentially suicidal.

German constitution, article 20, paragraph 4 (or 3) gives every German the right to resist - even by the use of force - to everybody who wants to overthrow the constitutional order of Germany. Beside that, we have guarantees for free opinion, free speech and so on. Only the rules that guarantee these freedoms are non-negotiable, and it necessarily must be so, else these freedoms are no longer possible. I am sure that American laws have something comparable.

Mike, tolerance is a nice thing, but if you tolerate your own destroying or your own overthrowing by the other, in the name of tolerance for the other's intention, then you are not tolerant, but - ooops, now I almost would have said something...

Unlimited, indiscriminative tolerance leads to anarchy and the law of the strongest. It is not only illogical and acchieves the direct opposite of what it claims it wants to acchieve - it is simply stupid.

In other words - one's own tolerance better should be somewhat influenced by the ammount of tolerance the other has for me. Tolerance without demanding reciprocity in that sooner or later leads to one's subjugation by someone who does not share my tolerance.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

you ask what i suggest be done with him... would it surprise you that i have no opinion whatsoever on what should be done with him... number 1- i am not there... 2- i do not know this person, either personally, or by his record... 3- i am not a citizen of the empire 4- i am not a sponsor or active participant in the evacuation...

i could go on giving you reasons... but in short... IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS... I DON'T CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER... i am so far removed from this as to have my opinion be insignificant to the event...

my response was to you...

your cold, narrow, uncivilized, and self rightheous viewpoint of a situation which you 1- are also not there... 2- also do not know this person personally 3- are also not a sponsor or active participant in what is supposed to be a humanitarian effort at rescue...

easy to be god when you are so far removed the sins and uncertainty...


i asked you what you've done to be so much more deserving as this guy... you answer

Nothing like that guy for sure.

... certainly you've neglected to answer the question with an obvious sidestep... typical of the self righteous...

Ah, since when did the Hippocratic Oath have anything to do with international politics?

since civilized men climbed out of caves, and chose to stop eating each other, and instead offer a branch of humanism in there relations with each other... no response to this is necessary...


you are so certain of everything... i would like to, for a few days, have the power to have you change places with this person... for you to undersstand hwy he is the way he is... for you to wlak in his sandals for a few days...

... and for him to walk in your shoes for a few days as well.


@ CB

i think the thing is that every one has the right to believe anything they want---or feel is correct according to their culture

i didn't say that... as a matter of fact, my personal feelings is that all who aspouse sensless killing and violence against their brother and sisters... and those who act in accord with this sort of thinking... should be dealt with in terms which they aspouse, and would certainly understand...

the reality of the situationis that i live in a land governed by laws... not by emotions... and the strength that i've seen as being real power , is the strength that is echoed by your own bibles, korans, torahs, learned writings and teachers words...

you all seem to have not heard or read these words... or you would not take the positions of savagary and inhumanity that you do...

obviously you have to safegaurd yourselves... CB suppose a terrorist sub comes out of the depths and torpedoes the boat... what about a terrorist missile... suppose he has infected himself with the plague in order to extract his revenge... ya startin to see the potential for speculation...

suppose the people who are boarding these resuees have the sense and forethought to establish security measures... think that's a more likely possibility...




--Mike

[CB..]

yes i think this crosses over a little with the bishop being niave thread a while back---we are getting into a major crisis surrounding not politics but religion...this is because -i believe (LOL)- we are insanely niave about how members of fundamentalist religious organisations actually view the rest of the population---even where on the surface there is a layer of pleasant gobble-de-gook how do you do god is love rhetoric under neath there is enough venal insanity to make even Hitler blush--
even Christianity which is generally supposed to be fairly harmless by and by-- is founded with the concept that countless billions of people are going to suffer eternally whilst a select few bounce up and down glee fully in bliss-full contentment--not IMO a terribly desirable soloution to the worlds problems--would you buy a used car from these people? frankly i think it's about time we stopped pussy footing around the issues and confronted the religious leaders -of all persusions -on what exactly their beliefs entail and how seriously they expect to be able to influence society as a whole towards their desired model..

it's no longer a quaint side issue..

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

your very statement above underscores your naivity CB... you use the word 'we'... as if there weren't people sympathetic to and part of the middle eastern culture, here on this very forum, a constituent part of the 'we' you so thoughtlessly use...


your point of view is based on your own particular preferences, biases, prejudices...

don't mistake me for being one of you... i am not...
i have no particular predjucie or agenda... and the ones that i do have, you wouldn't understand...

regardless... you try and justify your positions as being those of humane and civilized majority... it is neither humane, nor civilized... it is only the majority... and that itself, is a limited majority, restricted to the population here.


--Mike

[CB..]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

your very statement above underscores your naivity... you use the word we... as if there weren't people sympathetic to and part of the middle eastern culture here on this very forum... a constituent part of the 'we' you so thoughtlessly use...


your point of view is based on your own particular preferences, biases, prejudices...

don't mistake me for one of you... i have no particular predjucie or agenda... and the ones that i do have, you wouldn't understand...

regardless... don't try and justify your positions as being those of humane and civilized majority... it is neither humane, nnor civilized... only the majority... and that is a limited majority, restricted to the population here.


--Mike

jolly good...

[jumpy]

IT IS NONE OF MY BUSINESS... I DON'T CARE ONE WAY OR ANOTHER...

good for you, be sure to remind Omar of that when he advocates your murder and destruction of your way of life that enables you to express yourself so...

i asked you what you've done to be so much more deserving as this guy... you answer Quote:
Nothing like that guy for sure.
... certainly you've neglected to answer the question with an obvious sidestep... typical of the self righteous...

Well for a start I am a hardworking and decent person who makes an effort to help out people in what limited way I can - those around me and those who I migh pass in the street- though you take you life into your hands these days with the unsolicited helping of strangers... I damn well don't preach the murder of innocent people for the sake of my barking religious convictions.

I have lived in the ME for a number of years and at one time I was quite prepared to accept our cultural 'differences' as just that. More recent and continuing events have turned my better nature from these radical individuals, as my generosity and that of those countries like mine will only be interpreted as weakness to be exploited by such idealistic zealots.
It is an uncomfortable dichotomy to resolve based upon my previous experience of ME culture and generosity and the continuing brutality to which so many now appear to blindly subscribe, cloaking it in their religion.
I eventually reached the conclusion that there cannot be any sense of reasoning with some people hehehehe :hmm: ...but that is the way of the world for the majority.

Anyway, if you want to be pedantic about it, your view of me is just as biased as my view of omar bakri, but for very different and painfully obvious reasons.

Judge me, if you feel you must, but don't for one minute think that you know me.